Haydn's Haus

[Sergeant Rock]

OK, Sarge, I did a cursory search (that has a special meaning in Haydn research, it means I cursed a lot ), and I found these two, just in New Grove. I'll find some commentary to go with them I'm sure:


Hob.                 Work               KEY       Instruments          Year              Edition                   Comment
VIId:2   Concerto a 2 corni,    Eb        unk.                  –?1784                                         lost
—           Concerto for 2 horns, Eb    2 ob, 2 hn, str              ?         (Amsterdam, 1966)   

Comment for #2:  orig. without   author's name;  'par Michael Heiden' added later


Somewhere I saw a disk which had this second work on it. Note it doesn't have a Hoboken number, which seems to say it was found after Hoboken was done with that section (1958, I think). It would be the one I was thinking was attrib. to Michael, but even that seems in doubt, just reading the comment on it. Feder is really harsh about that sort of thing, but that is probably a good thing. If it is a good concerto and you forced me to pick a composer, the first thing I would say is Rosetti. Back in 1966 he was not neartly so well known, so he wouldn't have been one to attrib. it to.

I'll see what else I can turn up.

Have you found out anything about VIId:6, the Double Horn Conc that the Wiki article mentions?

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I ordered a copy yesterday.  Will let you folks know.

I ordered it a few hours ago. Should have it Monday Wednesday.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Have you found out anything about VIId:6, the Double Horn Conc that the Wiki article mentions?

Sarge

No, I don't know where that number comes from. It doesn't appear in New Grove, nor in any of Landon's books or Wyn-Jones' either. Given the key (Eb) and the dates (1966), I have to believe it is referring to the work listed with no Hob number. Among the authentic and spurious works, 6 was not the next number available, 5 was still open. But maybe someone (the publisher??) just picked that number. I'm puzzled by that, usually people don't just make a number up, but Feder doesn't just miss things like that either. Maybe we'll have to write to Welser-Most...

[Gurn Blanston]

1770 was quite an interesting year, lots going on, great music being written... even being shown off in Vienna by the Prince!  I took a brief look at it, if you're interested, have a look.

1770, the year the Empress came to visit (the first time)

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment.

[Bogey]

1770 was quite an interesting year, lots going on, great music being written... even being shown off in Vienna by the Prince!  I took a brief look at it, if you're interested, have a look.

1770, the year the Empress came to visit (the first time)

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment.

Gotta' ask:  Where does your wife line up with your Haydn passion.  Supports?  That's his thing?  or Does not know about this second life of yours?  Just curious.  As well as friends down there.  Folks at work?  It's just so stinking impressive that I hope they get what you have put together.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gotta' ask:  Where does your wife line up with your Haydn passion.  Supports?  That's his thing?  or Does not know about this second life of yours?  Just curious.  As well as friends down there.  Folks at work?  It's just so stinking impressive that I hope they get what you have put together.

  Oh, she knows. She supports it because I guess she reckons it keeps me off the streets. It isn't an interest of hers, but she respects that my tastes differ. Can't beat that, I guess. People at work know nothing about it, I don't think they would be interested though. Basically it's just me and the Interwebs. I am pleased that you are enjoying it, Bill. People like yourself are my intended audience, since you are the most likely to expand your interest in Haydn with some easy help from me. This is basically outline for what I hope will be my legacy. We'll see.

[DavidW]

You had some symphony posts on your main page but it stops well before the end.  Have they not been written yet or do they just not feature as highly to warrant links on the front page?

[Gurn Blanston]

You had some symphony posts on your main page but it stops well before the end.  Have they not been written yet or do they just not feature as highly to warrant links on the front page?

The chronology posts? I was just doing them like a decade at a time. I could do them to the end, but I wanted to use them more as a preview of the near future. I am up to 1770 right now and the symphony chronology is at 1774, so I will be putting in the next installement soon.

[DavidW]

Ah okay I see.  I look forward to the next entry.

[Gurn Blanston]

Ah okay I see.  I look forward to the next entry.

Thanks. Hope you enjoy it.

[calyptorhynchus]

Getting near the end of the my Haydn symphony listening project (all 106 in the correct order) (and have got a lot more used to the Austro-Hungarian Chamber Orchestra's style).

Re No.98, the one with the harpsichord obbligato in the finale, I'm a bit puzzled because none of the recordings I have heard seem to make a sensible decision here. As to the harpsichord continuo in the symphonies generally I'm not fussed, I can do without it, or I can do with it. I guess I'd say I'd like to hear it up to about the 70s, but not in the later works. However in 98 there is a part for harpsichord specified in the finale as an instrumental solo. All the recordings I have heard don't feature a harpsichord continuo part in the rest of the work and suddenly this solo appears. Surely if Haydn was conducting from the harpsichord he didn't just play it in the solo. Is there a recording which has a continuo part in this symphony  played discretely and then a louder solo, which would seem to be the best solution?

[Sergeant Rock]

Getting near the end of the my Haydn symphony listening project (all 106 in the correct order) (and have got a lot more used to the Austro-Hungarian Chamber Orchestra's style).

Re No.98, the one with the harpsichord obbligato in the finale, I'm a bit puzzled because none of the recordings I have heard seem to make a sensible decision here. As to the harpsichord continuo in the symphonies generally I'm not fussed, I can do without it, or I can do with it. I guess I'd say I'd like to hear it up to about the 70s, but not in the later works. However in 98 there is a part for harpsichord specified in the finale as an instrumental solo. All the recordings I have heard don't feature a harpsichord continuo part in the rest of the work and suddenly this solo appears. Surely if Haydn was conducting from the harpsichord he didn't just play it in the solo. Is there a recording which has a continuo part in this symphony  played discretely and then a louder solo, which would seem to be the best solution?

My understanding (which could be outdated and disproved now) is that the sudden appearance of the harpischord was meant to be a joke, in which case, no, he wouldn't have been playing through the whole of the symphony.

Sarge

[North Star]

My understanding (which could be outdated and disproved now) is that the sudden appearance of the harpischord was meant to be a joke, in which case, no, he wouldn't have been playing through the whole of the symphony.

Sarge

Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:

"...but composers at London concerts about 1790–1800 directed from the piano, playing from the bass throughout, as Haydn is reported to have done in his London symphonies."

[Sergeant Rock]

Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:...but composers at London concerts about 1790–1800 directed from the piano, playing from the bass throughout, as Haydn is reported to have done in his London symphonies.

And yet none of the versions I own of 98 use a keyboard continuo, including the HIPsters Kuijken and Minkowski. In fact Mink's notes claim that although Haydn was seated at the keyboard he didn't play (or direct), only coming in for the short obbligato solo at the end. Until we build a Wayback Machine, I guess we'll never know for sure what really happened that evening...or how Haydn expected his late symphonies to be performed.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:

The custom of playing keyboard continuo lingered on in London far after it was a dead dog in the rest of Europe. This is why Haydn was at the pianoforte all of his concerts, and he did indeed throw in a tinkle from time to time. Despite the London newspapers calling it 'directed from the harpsichord', this is just a linguistic archaism, in a concert hall situation like that, there actually was a conductor, he was there to add credibility for the audience. You can bet he had plenty to say in rehearsals though!

I can't say I can hear any continuo in my versions of 98, but I have a hard time hearing it in general. Harpsichords get lost in the mix, and even a fortepiano would have a tough go of it in an orchestra of 40 or more players.

[Karl Henning]

Yet another day when I find this one of the most interesting threads on GMG.

Carry on, gents.

[DavidW]

It is difficult to hear the continuo even in the smaller ensembles you find in the earlier symphonies.  If it's present in a London symphony, I think only the performers are intended to hear it, and not the audience.

[Gurn Blanston]

It is difficult to hear the continuo even in the smaller ensembles you find in the earlier symphonies.  If it's present in a London symphony, I think only the performers are intended to hear it, and not the audience.

True, and you know, the keyboard is intended to fill in the texture, not to sound like just a separate instrument. This is the root of Sarge's objection to Pinnock's Haydn, I believe. There is a difference between filling in texture and being another (leading) instrument in the band!

[calyptorhynchus]

Thanks for all these comments re 98 and the harpsichord. I understand that the solo is a joke, I just think it would be funner if the harpsichord was dutifully tinkling at points in the work and then let rip in the solo, almost like a last blast for the orchestral continuo.

[Madiel]

That Haydn. Such a witty cad.