Haydn's Haus

[EigenUser]

The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 

Sarge

Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now! It's like when someone here on GMG said that the last movement of the Mendelssohn Octet quotes "Hallelujah" chorus, or when someone in my university orchestra pointed out that the section of Bartok's "Dance Suite" we were rehearsing sounds like "Sleigh Ride".

[Ken B]

Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

I will get lynched for saying this, but Mozart's symphonies divide into 2 groups, the last 4 and all the rest. The rest are often very nice, but they aren't Mozart in high gear. For that you go to the piano concertos, the operas, and the chamber music. For you specifnicaly I recommend K  452 the piano and wind quintet, and PC 20, 21, 23, 24

[Ken B]

Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now! It's like when someone here on GMG said that the last movement of the Mendelssohn Octet quotes "Hallelujah" chorus, or when someone in my university orchestra pointed out that the section of Bartok's "Dance Suite" we were rehearsing sounds like "Sleigh Ride".

I will never say anything about what La Mer sounds like. But my gf says whenever I play it all she can hear is snoring.

[Ken B]

5 of the Odiaga pf recordings are dirt cheap at BRO. I bought all five ($8 total I think) and am liking the first one

[asin]B0000049QD[/asin]

Opinions Gurn?

[EigenUser]

I will never say anything about what La Mer sounds like. But my gf says whenever I play it all she can hear is snoring.

That's because you should be listening to "Jeux".

[Gurn Blanston]

5 of the Odiaga pf recordings are dirt cheap at BRO. I bought all five ($8 total I think) and am liking the first one

[asin]B0000049QD[/asin]

Opinions Gurn?

I have 6 of them by her. I like her style. Even though the early ones are really harpsichord music, there are enough precedents on fortepiano to be able to say that she is as good as any, technically better than some who are highly rated but too aggressive for this music, which wasn't written for high-class professionals to rip through. I think her playing is more in the spirit of the music.

FYI, I think the reason there were an abundance of unsold disks available to BRO to sell is because when they were selling retail, they were trying to get $20+/disk for them and people just weren't buying. I didn't. Glad to have them now though.

[Sergeant Rock]

Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now!

Remember the old saying, Be careful what you ask for 

But seriously, I like cats; being reminded of the cute murderous little furballs is a pleasant association for me.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Well, most of Haydn's later symphonies are the cat's meow.

Indeed, indeed 

Sarge

[EigenUser]

Remember the old saying, Be careful what you ask for 

But seriously, I like cats; being reminded of the cute murderous little furballs is a pleasant association for me.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

I am not a theoretician, so I can only address your question in a historical context. Mozart was (surprisingly?) very conservative in the early days, I think. And even in his later symphonies he wasn't particularly daring. In his Viennese chamber music he used plenty of chromaticism though. Haydn, OTOH, didn't give a damn. He used chromatics, distant keys, bizarre rhythms; in short, he did as he pleased, but it all makes sense in the larger context of the work. He used chromaticism as an ornament, I think you would say, just as he used other ornaments.

This is probably a reflection of their personalities as well as of their situations in life. Mozart was vulnerable in his public music to the reaction of critics and fans. Haydn was permanently employed by a man who loved and understood music and had a taste for the slightly bizarre and what would have been avant-garde at the time. Big difference in what you are willing to put on paper with those contextual differences. Many Viennese in the 70's and 80's thought Haydn's music was OTT, and frankly, he didn't give a damn. Note that his later music actually was a bit more conservative because now he was relying on sales for income. However, his reputation was so huge by then, that what was isolated and eccentric in the 60's and 70's was on the cutting edge of the mainstream by the 90's.

Sometimes what has come down to us is formed more by unseen circumstances than by the composer's imagination.

[Sergeant Rock]

I will get lynched for saying this, but Mozart's symphonies divide into 2 groups, the last 4 and all the rest.

I'll be forming the lynch mob. I love 25, 33 and 34.

Sarge

[EigenUser]

I am not a theoretician, so I can only address your question in a historical context. Mozart was (surprisingly?) very conservative in the early days, I think. And even in his later symphonies he wasn't particularly daring. In his Viennese chamber music he used plenty of chromaticism though. Haydn, OTOH, didn't give a damn. He used chromatics, distant keys, bizarre rhythms; in short, he did as he pleased, but it all makes sense in the larger context of the work. He used chromaticism as an ornament, I think you would say, just as he used other ornaments.

This is probably a reflection of their personalities as well as of their situations in life. Mozart was vulnerable in his public music to the reaction of critics and fans. Haydn was permanently employed by a man who loved and understood music and had a taste for the slightly bizarre and what would have been avant-garde at the time. Big difference in what you are willing to put on paper with those contextual differences. Many Viennese in the 70's and 80's thought Haydn's music was OTT, and frankly, he didn't give a damn. Note that his later music actually was a bit more conservative because now he was relying on sales for income. However, his reputation was so huge by then, that what was isolated and eccentric in the 60's and 70's was on the cutting edge of the mainstream by the 90's.

Sometimes what has come down to us is formed more by unseen circumstances than by the composer's imagination.

Very interesting and exactly what I wanted to know. If you were a theoretician I wouldn't have been able to understand the explanation because I'm not one, either . One thing that really struck me was the trio of the third movement of 88. It seemed so ahead of its time -- the jarring rhythm combined with the bagpipe-like drone which doesn't change regardless of what dissonances might occur when juxtaposed with the theme. Almost reminded me of Bartok.

Thanks!

[Gurn Blanston]

Very interesting and exactly what I wanted to know. If you were a theoretician I wouldn't have been able to understand the explanation because I'm not one, either . One thing that really struck me was the trio of the third movement of 88. It seemed so ahead of its time -- the jarring rhythm combined with the bagpipe-like drone which doesn't change regardless of what dissonances might occur when juxtaposed with the theme. Almost reminded me of Bartok.

Thanks!

If Haydn could be narrowed down to one strong point in his work, it would be a really tough choice between his Adagios (which are freaking gorgeous, usually) and his minuets, which are unique in every way, oftentimes hilarious when you try to mentally picture people dancing to this music!    #88 is a brilliant work on many levels, but the minuet is one-of-a-kind, also one of MY favorites.

To answer a question you put a poll out about:  #88 in G, #92 in G, #94 in G & #100 in (that's right!) G are my 4 favorites of the late works. Even if they aren't the four best symphonies (how can you top #103 or 104?) they are so quintessentially Haydnish that there is nothing else to say. 

[Sergeant Rock]

To answer a question you put a poll out about:  #88 in G, #92 in G, #94 in G & #100 in (that's right!) G are my 4 favorites of the late works. Even if they aren't the four best symphonies (how can you top #103 or 104?) they are so quintessentially Haydnish that there is nothing else to say. 

That's a brutal poll. Your four, Gurn, could easily be my four...but 93, 95 and 99 were chosen instead (100 or 101 would have been the fourth choice). And yes, how could I not include 103 or 104 (which, along with 88, was the Haydn of choice for 20th century conductors who conducted little other Haydn). Just shows you how great he was.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

That's a brutal poll. Your four, Gurn, could easily be my four...but 93, 95 and 99 were chosen instead (100 or 101 would have been the fourth choice). And yes, how could I not include 103 or 104 (which, along with 88, was the Haydn of choice for 20th century conductors who conducted little other Haydn). Just shows you how great he was.

Sarge

Brutal? Yes, I didn't even vote. I have ~106 favorites, what can I say?   

You're right, I only just thought about that, but those are the ones I see with the big time old guys. And 92 also, for good measure. Seriously, you could put a CD together by picking out any 3 symphonies at random and I guarantee it would be an entertaining (at least!) hour of listening. I know, I do it all the time.

[Pat B]

I don't know them as well as y'all (yet)... but my notes say I really liked 88.

[DavidW]

I'll be forming the lynch mob. I love 25, 33 and 34.

Sarge

I love 25, 29, 35 and 36.  Can't believe Ken would even exclude 35 and 36!

[Old Listener]

I agree that the last 4 Mozart symphonies are in a different league than all the preceding ones.  However, 25,28,29,31,33,34, 35 and 36 are in a different league from 1-24, 26,27 and 30.

Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me.  The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure.  Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

[Sergeant Rock]

Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me.  The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure.  Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

Yeah, Haydn is like that. But there is a certain perverse pleasure in trying to narrow it down to a favorite few...if one is masochistically inclined. And judging by the popularity of the polls, I'd say most GMGers are 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree that the last 4 Mozart symphonies are in a different league than all the preceding ones.  However, 25,28,29,31,33,34, 35 and 36 are in a different league from 1-24, 26,27 and 30.

Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me.  The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure.  Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

I love 25, 29, 35 and 36.  Can't believe Ken would even exclude 35 and 36!

I like all of Mozart's symphonies, even the early ones. To expect that the 15 year old boy would produce a greater masterpiece than K550, for example, is pushing the envelope of credulity. But just because it isn't that way, doesn't mean the balance of them suck. I've never felt a need to listen to nothing but masterpieces. Good solid workmanship works out OK for me too.

I don't know them as well as y'all (yet)... but my notes say I really liked 88.

Strongly recommend you listen to it again, I've found it difficult to evaluate Haydn's symphonies on anything less than 30 or 40 listenings....