Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

according to this site, the Latin translation of sonar is sonar.
http://en.glosbe.com/en/la/sonar

*sigh*  I was hoping for something more colorful. I bet Karl can come up with something.

Let's see; SOund Navigation And Ranging...  Luctus et sonum Adipiscing

LESA! OK, let's go with that, unless Karl helps us out.

[Gurn Blanston]

I never thought the D major cello concerto was by Haydn, even before I learned of the authorship controversy. He's now generally considered to be the author, but it still doesn't sound like it to me.

Yeah, but 'sounds like X' is a very difficult contention to prove or disprove. I haven't looked at that controversy in a couple of years, but IIRC it is pretty well definitive since an autograph manuscript turned up, wasn't that the case?

Or were you just answering Greg's question?     Oops, sorry, I'm so argumentative!  0:)

[amw]

*sigh*  I was hoping for something more colorful. I bet Karl can come up with something.

Would you prefer a German title? Let's see, it's got repeated notes in it... hmm... Symphony No. 65 'mit dem Notenwiederholdung'. That should do it.

Or were you just answering Greg's question?     Oops, sorry, I'm so argumentative!  0:)

Yep. I'm sure it is actually by Haydn if the scholars have concluded it is, but it sounds very un-Haydnian to my ears.

[Gurn Blanston]

On another forum someone asked whether anything is known about Haydn's view of middle period Beethoven - things like the Eroica. No clear reply was forthcoming so I thought I'd see if anyone here knows the answer.

I'm going to guess that this started with some sort of quotation of some statement by Haydn along the lines of his saying (after hearing the Eroica performed) 'This is strange and new music and everything is changed now' or something like that, is that correct?

I read that quote several years ago in a book about Beethoven, although right this minute I can't put my hands on it due to short memory issues. It was one of those "memoirs 50 years later" sort of things.

In Volume 5 of "Chronicle & Works" Robbins-Landon talks at length about the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, which was rather acrimonious at best. On page 282 he discusses the possibility of Haydn hearing the Eroica in a performance conducted by Hummel (his replacement in Eisenstadt). There are scores for Beethoven 1 - 3 in the Esterházy collection, so anything is possible, but HCR-L concludes that there is no way to know if Haydn ever heard it, only that a series of circumstances may have allowed him to hear it. (last line on the page). My personal opinion is that by 1806 (when this could have happened) Haydn wasn't going to Eisenstadt very often, if at all. The likelihood is very very slim that he ever heard any Middle Period Beethoven at all. IIRC, the last documented Beethoven work he heard was The Creatures of Prometheus...

Any implication that Haydn would have been derisive or wistful or in any way negative about Beethoven's music is hogwash. I just want to get that on the record. If you look at Haydn's final instrumental works, the Opus 77 string quartets, you can easily see that Haydn was even at his advanced age, going down the same sort of musical road that Beethoven was on. His musical language post-London looks forward to the 19th century, and not just the first decade of it. It took his death to allow others to catch up with him musically!

[Gurn Blanston]

Would you prefer a German title? Let's see, it's got repeated notes in it... hmm... Symphony No. 65 'mit dem Notenwiederholdung'. That should do it.
Yep. I'm sure it is actually by Haydn if the scholars have concluded it is, but it sounds very un-Haydnian to my ears.

Oh, I love that! Notenwiederholdung! It rolls trippingly off the tongue, does it not? 

[Ken B]

That's close enough for government work...  

My bowdlerization is more PC than your version!

[Gurn Blanston]

My bowdlerization is more PC than your version!

Yes, yes it is. Nice to meet someone whose been around the same block I have. 

[Pat B]

In Volume 5 of "Chronicle & Works" Robbins-Landon talks at length about the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, which was rather acrimonious at best.

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? I know it was strained, at least at times, but to me, "acrimonious at best" says "they despised each other." I haven't read Robbins-Landon though.

[Brahmsian]

The simple Haydn Haus Question of the day...

What do you find to be the most uncharacteristic composition from Haydn? A piece that stands out, not in a bad way or maybe it does.

For me Greg, it is perhaps 'The Seven Last Words...' in string quartet form.  Uber unique, love the piece.

Also, the Sinfonia Concertante No. 105 is pretty unique, as is # 60 'Il Distratto'.

[Gurn Blanston]

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? I know it was strained, at least at times, but to me, "acrimonious at best" says "they despised each other." I haven't read Robbins-Landon though.

Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while.

[Gurn Blanston]

For me Greg, it is perhaps 'The Seven Last Words...' in string quartet form.  Uber unique, love the piece.

Also, the Sinfonia Concertante No. 105 is pretty unique, as is # 60 'Il Distratto'.

The first 2 are, I think, right on. In thinking about it last night, 7 Last Words was the piece I had narrowed on, although not any particular version of it. The Sinfonia is a great choice too, simply because it ISN'T Haydnesque in any way, it is strictly London (French, really) style popular music. Good thinking there! 

[Karl Henning]

Huzzah for our Ray!

[Pat B]

Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while.

Thanks for the response. I'm going to do some reading, but it might take a while. Don't be surprised if I bump this in several months.

[Ken B]

Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while.

As I have mentioned, I avoid learning too much about the artists I admire, because it's usually bad. Haydn is one of the few composers, Brahms another, who seem to have been thoroughly decent.
But I won't thank you for this nugget; how does Ludwig come out of it 

[Gurn Blanston]

As I have mentioned, I avoid learning too much about the artists I admire, because it's usually bad. Haydn is one of the few composers, Brahms another, who seem to have been thoroughly decent.
But I won't thank you for this nugget; how does Ludwig come out of it 

I can't help my passion for history, it is the essence of my character. However, I have a very open mind about such things and don't take them as a make or break deal.

What I study now of Haydn, having all his music and every imaginable book about him, before him I did this with Beethoven, and before that, with Mozart. I am a huge fan of Beethoven's music, and I admire many things about him and especially what he accomplished. That said, I can only and honestly say that he was pretty much an asshole. This was well known to his contemporaries, but progressively overlooked and/or explained away by his successors. I don't know why, since he was what he was, and it changes nothing about his music. At least I can say that he had no apparent prejudices, all of his issues were with specific persons for specific reasons, and that is admirable, especially in his time.

Haydn has plenty of warts of his own, but they don't involve treating anyone like crap. Well, maybe his wife, but that went both ways. And publishers too, but they still had a huge advantage over him and used it always. He went out of his way to help any and every musician, even one who could have been a rival down the road (although none ever was). Not even Mozart in his lifetime was a rival of Haydn, only after his death, and even then Haydn helped promote him for the benefit of his family.

If I were to allow my own 21st century prejudices to affect their 18th century actions and thoughts, I think I would be missing out on some of the most important and interesting aspects of their lives and careers.

[EigenUser]

I can't help my passion for history, it is the essence of my character. However, I have a very open mind about such things and don't take them as a make or break deal.

What I study now of Haydn, having all his music and every imaginable book about him, before him I did this with Beethoven, and before that, with Mozart. I am a huge fan of Beethoven's music, and I admire many things about him and especially what he accomplished. That said, I can only and honestly say that he was pretty much an asshole. This was well known to his contemporaries, but progressively overlooked and/or explained away by his successors. I don't know why, since he was what he was, and it changes nothing about his music. At least I can say that he had no apparent prejudices, all of his issues were with specific persons for specific reasons, and that is admirable, especially in his time.

Haydn has plenty of warts of his own, but they don't involve treating anyone like crap. Well, maybe his wife, but that went both ways. And publishers too, but they still had a huge advantage over him and used it always. He went out of his way to help any and every musician, even one who could have been a rival down the road (although none ever was). Not even Mozart in his lifetime was a rival of Haydn, only after his death, and even then Haydn helped promote him for the benefit of his family.

If I were to allow my own 21st century prejudices to affect their 18th century actions and thoughts, I think I would be missing out on some of the most important and interesting aspects of their lives and careers.

+1. I love history (minored in US history). For fun, I focus on 20th-century history of music. Particularly the lives of Bartok, Ravel, and Ligeti. All fascinating characters.

And yeah, I heard that Haydn and his wife pretty much hated each other. Apparently he really wanted to marry her sister, but she was to become a nun so he had to settle for her. I even read that she would use his manuscripts as curling-paper for her hair . I wonder what great music was lost as a result.

[kishnevi]

Actually, LvB displayed several key traits of Asperger Syndrome (although that term is being discreetly shown the door by the DSM folks,  who prefer HighFunctioning Autism as a term of art, although it is equally vague when you get down to it). His being a right royal PITA fits well with that.  It is rather odd that people have rushed to claim Mozart as autistic, yet ignore Beethoven, who fits the mold far better.  (For WAM the only real evidence is the fact that he does not seem to have started talking until he was four.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, LvB displayed several key traits of Asperger Syndrome (although that term is being discreetly shown the door by the DSM folks,  who prefer HighFunctioning Autism as a term of art, although it is equally vague when you get down to it). His being a right royal PITA fits well with that.  It is rather odd that people have rushed to claim Mozart as autistic, yet ignore Beethoven, who fits the mold far better.  (For WAM the only real evidence is the fact that he does not seem to have started talking until he was four.)

Yes, there are books and books diagnosing the stars of the past. I find them interesting but unconvincing, in the main. Someone who spent a good deal of time trying to psychoanalyze Beethoven was Maynard Solomon, who got into an everlasting world of giant poop because he suggested that not everything about Beethoven was exactly 'normal', whatever that might be! Here and there Solomon was OTT, but he was within bounds to speculate, they were mostly reasonable suppositions. Hard for even a fine doctor to diagnose someone without actually interviewing the live person, given how memoirs are skewed by the lens of the writer.

Asperger's does seem to fit the observable symptoms, but some of those 'symptoms' are biased by modern perceptions and experiences which may not be germane to late 18th / early 19th century conditions. I don't care though if he was a Froot Loop. I rather like Froot Loops.   

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, I promise, this will be the last opera for a little while.   But it IS a singspiel, and it does have puppets, so hey, this is something new and different. Check it out and see!

Not just stringing us along!

Thanks for that, and please, feel free to discuss.

[EigenUser]

Okay, a possible name for 38 is "The Incompetent 2nd Violinist" because they play in the "wrong" place in the 2nd movement many times. It reminds me of that part towards the end of the first movement of Shostakovich's 9th symphony, where the trombone keeps coming in at the "wrong" time, and then they finally get it right.

Or, it could also be called "The Show-off Oboist".