Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

A righteous rant, O Gurn.

That was exactly my quarrel with Harlow Robinson in his bio of Prokofiev . . . but I digress . . . .

No, you don't actually digress, that is exactly the point. Robinson was Prok.'s biographer, not the arbiter of his art, correct?  

[Karl Henning]

Correct!

[Gurn Blanston]

I think sometimes Haydn liked to try things out, and if he liked them he would stash them away for future use. Sometimes it would be almost 20 years in the future, but suddenly, there it would be again, that great idea. Something like this happened in 1775, I wrote about it if you want to check it out.

This is only a test, don't adjust your set...

Thanks for reading,

[kishnevi]

If 101 is the Clock then perhaps 68 is the Watch.
And 67 is the Backwards or Reversed.

[Gurn Blanston]

If 101 is the Clock then perhaps 68 is the Watch.
And 67 is the Backwards or Reversed.

You'll need to get with Sarge and get some album covers made... 

[EigenUser]

Very interesting, thanks!

From your essay:

If you want to jump the rails of time a little bit, go on to 1789 and listen to Symphony 92, the Oxford Symphony. Note the superlative minuet, which, in the trio, misplaces the accents in relation to the bar line. The result is a totally eccentric and engaging joke which you can't quite tap your toe to! Now, listen to the trio of our present #68 and see where this idea was born. Good ideas lived and developed in his head and came out later, which we shall see more of very soon.

He does exactly this in the trio of 88 as well. It, too, has harmonies based off of parallel fifths, which makes it sound like folk-Bagpipes -- almost Bartokian!

I love this kind of musical trickery. Even today, John Adams does this in his "Short Ride in a Fast Machine" (not a masterpiece, but a downright fun four minutes) where most of the piece has a woodblock beating time. Every so often, though, he discreetly skips a beat and I end up tapping my foot to the off-beat!

[Gurn Blanston]

Very interesting, thanks!

From your essay:He does exactly this in the trio of 88 as well. It, too, has harmonies based off of parallel fifths, which makes it sound like folk-Bagpipes -- almost Bartokian!

I love this kind of musical trickery. Even today, John Adams does this in his "Short Ride in a Fast Machine" (not a masterpiece, but a downright fun four minutes) where most of the piece has a woodblock beating time. Every so often, though, he discreetly skips a beat and I end up tapping my foot to the off-beat!

I love it too. I am in that category of listeners that Mozart wrote to his father: 'they will love it and not really know why'. But anytime he gets the rhythm all displaced like that, I find it secretly satisfying. Must be my own eccentricity coming forward. The bagpipe thing is something he used his entire career, usually to accompany some little folk-type tune or to highlight some oddity. That trio is OTT! 

[TheGSMoeller]

Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

[Gurn Blanston]

Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

I like them, although I think they seem a bit too large for some of the earlier masses. I have heard from some others (they'll no doubt tell you) that they don't like the English style choral work, but I don't really know enough about choral work to tell anything. Try their late masses, they are well suited for those larger works, IMHO.   

[TheGSMoeller]

I like them, although I think they seem a bit too large for some of the earlier masses. I have heard from some others (they'll no doubt tell you) that they don't like the English style choral work, but I don't really know enough about choral work to tell anything. Try their late masses, they are well suited for those larger works, IMHO.   

Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Taukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

[Karl Henning]

Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Taukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

Copying-&-pasting from Wikipedia . . . .

•No. 9 in B flat major: 'Missa sancti Bernardi von Offida', also known as the 'Heiligmesse' (H. 22/10) (1796)
•No. 10 in C major: 'Missa in tempore belli' ('Mass in Time of War'), also known as the 'Paukenmesse' ('Kettledrum Mass') (H. 22/9) (1796)
•No. 11 in D minor: 'Missa in Angustiis' ('Mass in Troubled Times'), also known as the 'Nelson Mass' (H. 22/11) (1798)
•No. 12 in B flat major: 'Theresienmesse' (named for the Maria Theresa of the Two Sicilies) (H. 22/12) (1799)
•No. 13 in B flat major: 'Schöpfungsmesse' ('Creation Mass') (H. 22/13) (1801)
•No. 14 in B flat major: 'Harmoniemesse' ('Wind-band Mass') (H. 22/14) (1802).

If these dates are to be trusted (and our Gurn will advise us), the earliest of these (№ 9) is 14 years later than № 8 (the Missa Cellensis) of 1782.

The Weil Masses are great!  There, I said it!  (I do enjoy Lenny in the Masses, too, be it noted.)

Boy trebles have a more tranquil tone, they don't as a rule sound as if they are working to reach certain notes.  It's a great sound for Stravinsky, too.

[Gurn Blanston]

Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Paukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

Yes, absolutely. The last 6, and that's one of them.

They say boys' choirs are an acquired taste. If so, then I acquired it my first go'round, because I like them a lot. Haydn got his start as a choir boy at 9 in Vienna, thanks to George Reutter.  It sounds ... firmer (?) than women, more solid, less warbling. Austrians didn't use women at all until late 18th century, even non-castrato's sang soprano and alto, a good solid falsetto. Check out this disk:

[asin]B000001S31[/asin]

which uses only men, and it is damn good too! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Copying-&-pasting from Wikipedia . . . .

If these dates are to be trusted (and our Gurn will advise us), the earliest of these (№ 9) is 14 years later than № 8 (the Missa Cellensis) of 1782.

The Weil Masses are great!  There, I said it!  (I do enjoy Lenny in the Masses, too, be it noted.)

Boy trebles have a more tranquil tone, they don't as a rule sound as if they are working to reach certain notes.  It's a great sound for Stravinsky, too.

Cross-posted!  Anyway, yes, you are right on there, including your more cogent description of boys' voices.

[TheGSMoeller]

Listening to the Theresienmesse for the first time, for a Haydn fan I'm a late bloomer on the masses, I know.
BUT, got to the Agnus Dei and heard a familiar tune right away. Is this only a coincidence that is sounds like a direct quote from the opening of Mozart's 25th Symphony?

This is not the recording I was listening to, but the best one I could find to post. Listen to the opening and then again at 1:24...

http://www.youtube.com/v/z4EFGFnViUQ

[Gurn Blanston]

Listening to the Theresienmesse for the first time, for a Haydn fan I'm a late bloomer on the masses, I know.
BUT, got to the Agnus Dei and heard a familiar tune right away. Is this only a coincidence that is sounds like a direct quote from the opening of Mozart's 25th Symphony?

This is not the recording I was listening to, but the best one I could find to post. Listen to the opening and then again at 1:24...

It uses a falling motive like the opening to the Little g minor, then moves on to a fast figure which is similar, before moving on. So there is an element of similarity. It is not unusual after Mozart's death, which affected Haydn severely, for him to use quotations from some Mozart works in a tributary sort of way. In this case, though, that symphony will have been virtually unknown to Vienna or Eisenstadt (the intended audience), and possibly even unknown to Haydn himself, since of the works which Mozart asked Leopold for performance scores, this wasn't one (that's documented). It rather reminds me of the case of the overture to Bastien and Bastienne, which overture commences with the same introduction as Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. It is very unlikely that Mozart ever heard Eroica...     

So, I think it is a commonality of language.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

I'm late to the game but I have three of the Hickox discs and love them. FWIW.

[Wakefield]

Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

BTW, I believe some interpretations conducted by Simon Preston (using boys choir and separately available on Decca) are very fine, too.   

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]



[asin]B0000042HO[/asin]

[asin]B0000041MA[/asin]

[Madiel]

Popping in to mention here that I finally pulled the trigger and ordered those two sets of Kuijken symphonies, the 'Paris' symphonies on one pair of discs and nos. 88 to 92 on the other pair.

I know I'd had them pencilled in ever since the Haus informed me of the existence of the 88-92 set, but I had a quick listen to a couple of samples on iTunes before including them in my order. It was only 5 minutes of listening, but gee I'm looking forward to hearing the full works now! Sounded great!

[TheGSMoeller]

It uses a falling motive like the opening to the Little g minor, then moves on to a fast figure which is similar, before moving on. So there is an element of similarity. It is not unusual after Mozart's death, which affected Haydn severely, for him to use quotations from some Mozart works in a tributary sort of way. In this case, though, that symphony will have been virtually unknown to Vienna or Eisenstadt (the intended audience), and possibly even unknown to Haydn himself, since of the works which Mozart asked Leopold for performance scores, this wasn't one (that's documented). It rather reminds me of the case of the overture to Bastien and Bastienne, which overture commences with the same introduction as Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. It is very unlikely that Mozart ever heard Eroica...     

So, I think it is a commonality of language.

So coincidence it is. It's even the same descending intervals, and notes based on the recordings I was comparing G, D, Eb, Gb. I guess brilliant minds think alike.
And I knew I could rely on you, Gurn, for a little history lesson.   
Thanks, friend!

I'm late to the game but I have three of the Hickox discs and love them. FWIW.

I've got the Nelson Mass on the way, and possibly more once I get a full listen in. Thanks for the recs, DD!

IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

I have the Trinity Choir/Rebel BO Naxos disc of the Stabat Mater, and LOVE it, for the reasons that you just mentioned, Gordo. Not sure why I waited so long to explore their other recordings.
Thanks!!

[Gurn Blanston]

IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

BTW, I believe some interpretations conducted by Simon Preston (using boys choir and separately available on Decca) are very fine, too.   

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]



[asin]B0000042HO[/asin]

All highly commendable. Note the second Decca listed is not AAM, it is London Symphony  and Academy of St Martin's etc., I find it deceptive of Deccan not to list that item on the cover. The other Decca is a peach though, (rant alert)even though they stubbornly insisted on calling the 'Missa Cellensis' the 'Missa St Cecelia' even though they were, by then, perfectly aware that St. Cecelia was nowhere to be found when this mass was written. I hate it when people knowingly try to perpetuate misinformation. (rant over)

Getting back to the Theresienmesse which began this discussion (I think), here is a version I rather like, rarely mentioned:

[asin]B0000057ED[/asin]

Nothing so exotic as a boys' choir, but nonetheless finely played and sung.

And a Nelson Mass which I haven't seen mentioned since I first rec'd it, this is a nice disk!

[asin]B008SCC36Q[/asin]

Oh well, don't want to get too OT, I'm just a rec'cing fool.