Haydn's Haus

[Moonfish]

His WETA blog was taken offline. Sad. I managed to save his Mahler survey but didn't get the Haydn.

Sarge

That is very sad. 
It seems like there is plenty of storage space on modern servers so why remove it? Such a great resource!
At least we have Dugan's survey. Perhaps I should copy it before it gets deleted....?

[Jo498]

Mahler surveys are a dime a dozen... but it's sad to see that Tony Duggan has passed away at a comparably early age. I must have missed that fact (I've looked several times at those survey, but the last time was probably a more than a couple of years ago).

[Gurn Blanston]

The probable unbeatable fun fact is already in, that you were an accomplished Sauschneider!

There are frequent links by Jens Laursen to an older blog? of his that does not longer exist (at least not reachable). Is this material, e.g. comparisons between several recordings of (some of) the string quartets available somewhere else?

  Ha, that is so!  I can't remember writing about that, but it's too true. Retired now, of course...


    Acht Sauschneider müassn sein, müassn sein, wenns an Saubärn wulln schneidn.
    Zwoa vorn und zwoa hintn,
    zwoa holtn, uana bintn
    und uana schneidt drein, schneidt drein,
    iahna achti müassn sein.


I'm glad you asked about Jens' blog, since the answers were new to me, too.  More's the pity, he is a very accomplished writer. As Moon says, it's a waste to remove it.

[Jo498]

With this song text I realized for the first time that "Saubär" is really a word for boar, probably still used in Austria or other southern regions of the German-speaking zone. I knew the word for name-calling but had somehow assumed that it was a funny combination of two animals. The standard German for a male pig is "Eber". (In my mothers Hessian dialect Mr and Mrs Pig were Watz and Wutz which sounds even more funny than Saubär.)

[Gurn Blanston]

With this song text I realized for the first time that "Saubär" is really a word for boar, probably still used in Austria or other southern regions of the German-speaking zone. I knew the word for name-calling but had somehow assumed that it was a funny combination of two animals. The standard German for a male pig is "Eber". (In my mothers Hessian dialect Mr and Mrs Pig were Watz and Wutz which sounds even more funny than Saubär.)

I noticed this was all in 'Austrian' instead of German, which made it particularly cool from my POV. My days as a pig farmer preceded those as a Haydnist, so it was a special pleasure when I discovered this Capriccio which Haydn wrote just for me.

[Wakefield]

Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

Frans Brüggen: Haydn [Sturm und Drang Symphonies - Paris Symphonies - London Symphonies]



CD1-5
Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment

I have listened to the five disks of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies with enormous pleasure.

Conducted by Brüggen with iron fist, these interpretations are more classically oriented than guided by "Storm and Stress" elements.

Anyway, and quite curiously, the music gains a good amount of tension because of the contrast between the music itself (apparently) calling for a more freewheeling interpretation and the great amount of dedication that Brüggen invests in delivering a more classical and detailed approach.

[kishnevi]

Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

Yes, that is the one I ordered, complete with 20% coupon.

[Gurn Blanston]

Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

I repeat also: anyone who likes Haydn, who hasn't these disks, and doesn't take advantage of this spectacular deal is making an enormous error.

Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm.

[Mandryka]

I repeat also: anyone who likes Haydn, who hasn't these disks, and doesn't take advantage of this spectacular deal is making an enormous error.

Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm.

PI maybe, but I'm not sure that he claims, at this stage in his career, to be playing authentically. For what it's worth I like his London Symphonies much much more than his other Haydn recordings.

To me, he makes the London Symphonies sound more like Beethoven than others do.

[Gurn Blanston]

PI maybe, but I'm not sure that he claims, at this stage in his career, to be playing authentically. For what it's worth I like his London Symphonies much much more than his other Haydn recordings.

To me, he makes the London Symphonies sound more like Beethoven than others do.

That's fine.

What I'm talking about is only tangentially related to Brüggen specifically, it has to do with the large variety of stylistic traits which are encompassed within authentic playing. Every city and town band in the 18th century sounded particular only to itself, not like the one in the next town. Which is why I am amused by the concept of a "HIP style"; it is a wide-open field.

[Cosi bel do]

The issue with Brüggen is that he was so careful about how much work he put into his interpretations that he recorded many of these symphonies one by one (sometimes live, sometimes in studio) and that led to great recordings, but then he had to finish cycles and he recorded sometimes 3 or 4 symphonies in a single session and the result is not as good, in terms of interpretative depth and (also) of engineering. So you might love a symphony, for instance, say, his wonderful acount of no. 98, and then you won't understand what happened with no. 95... But overall very few of these readings are less than excellent.

[Wakefield]

Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm.

Yes, I agree, but I'd add that the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies require an extra effort to do it because of a sort of interpretative consensus around them.

Not to mention, as you have pointed out before, that to establish a relation between Haydn and the (basically literary) "Sturm und Drang" movement involves some difficulties. 

[Gurn Blanston]

The issue with Brüggen is that he was so careful about how much work he put into his interpretations that he recorded many of these symphonies one by one (sometimes live, sometimes in studio) and that led to great recordings, but then he had to finish cycles and he recorded sometimes 3 or 4 symphonies in a single session and the result is not as good, in terms of interpretative depth and (also) of engineering. So you might love a symphony, for instance, say, his wonderful account of no. 98, and then you won't understand what happened with no. 95... But overall very few of these readings are less than excellent.

Interesting background, thanks for that. I think another aspect of the variety here has to do with use of different bands. Too much emphasis can be placed on a conductor and less so on the players, which I think this balance needs to be looked at.

Another Haydnish example of this same phenomenon is the Paris Symphonies conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken. I have read any number of comments which say 'well, Kuijken sounds different (and not so well) in the Paris works as in the London and in-between symphonies. Well yes, he isn't even playing an instrument! The Paris are played by OAE and the others by La Petite Bande! 

And with Brüggen, we also have OAE, and then Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century. So even without the time constraints, which I am sure have an effect as you describe, the basic issue of being an entirely different orchestra cannot be discounted! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, I agree, but I'd add that the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies require an extra effort to do it because of a sort of interpretative consensus around them.

Not to mention, as you have pointed out before, that to establish a relation between Haydn and the (basically literary) "Sturm und Drang" movement involves some difficulties. 

Yes, you are correct about the consensus of how should sound the S&D works. My own opinion is that just because a consensus has been reached, it doesn't mean it is correct! We all like the thrilling sound brought out by various bands over the years, but there is no saying Haydn would have liked it or not, he might be surprised as hell! 

Difficulties. Yes. Only today, I was reading an essay concerning the Greiner salon in Vienna, doing some research for tomorrow's essay. And the author goes on for a few paragraphs about how there are documented readings of Sorrows of Young Werther and other S&D classics, and Haydn was an attendee at this salon, thus the dramatic description by Landon of Haydn's music at this time must be in sequitur. However, I have discovered to my own satisfaction that time is a very linear sort of function, and the works Landon speaks of were composed between 1767 and 1772, while the readings of S&D works described took place no earlier than 1773, and so putative influence is here is dubious at best.

Unless, of course, we would like to attribute the German literary S&D to Haydn's music instead of the reverse...

[Wakefield]

BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. 

[Gurn Blanston]

BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. 

I agree, it is perfect. You're right though, it should be French, however they would have said it in 1770.

[Cosi bel do]

BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. 

We speak about the "siècle des Lumières" more than "âge" though. Or even just "Les Lumières".

[Wakefield]

Difficulties. Yes. Only today, I was reading an essay concerning the Greiner salon in Vienna, doing some research for tomorrow's essay. And the author goes on for a few paragraphs about how there are documented readings of Sorrows of Young Werther and other S&D classics, and Haydn was an attendee at this salon, thus the dramatic description by Landon of Haydn's music at this time must be in sequitur. However, I have discovered to my own satisfaction that time is a very linear sort of function, and the works Landon speaks of were composed between 1767 and 1772, while the readings of S&D works described took place no earlier than 1773, and so putative influence is here is dubious at best.

Yes! I recall I was aware of this fact about two years ago, when you expressed some similar idea talking about this same topic. 

[Wakefield]

We speak about the "siècle des Lumières" more than "âge" though. Or even just "Les Lumières".

Google isn't perfect then! It's crystal clear now.

[Cosi bel do]

The French are very attached to clear structures and periods, for instance centuries. After the Renaissance 16th, the 17th is labeled "Grand Siècle", then the 18th "Siècle des Lumières"... All that doesn't account for much in the minds of current historians of course.

"Orchestre des Lumières" would be a beautiful name for an ensemble, by the way.