Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

True enough. But to get away from being artificially snobby to irk Florestan, I might point out that where you're from makes a huge difference in your perception of what 'big' is.

All of Italy today, which includes the 'Two Sicilies' = 116,347 mi²

Texas = 268,820 mi²

I feel justified...  0:)

Well, big is not automatically great. In matters musical, for instance, The Kingdom of Naples (alone), gazillions - Texas, nil. (I actually wanted to give the latter one point for your Haydn site, but I just realized it was in the virtual space, so not Texan at all.) 

[Jo498]

For years I had no idea what "two Sicilies" was supposed to mean as there obviously was only *one* island of Sicily... But it sounds very romantic, if not quite as nice as "Castilia, Leon and Aragon"

[Karl Henning]

I should think Napoli would take umbrage at being "the other Sicily" 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, big is not automatically great. In matters musical, for instance, The Kingdom of Naples (alone), gazillions - Texas, nil. (I actually wanted to give the latter one point for your Haydn site, but I just realized it was in the virtual space, so not Texan at all.) 

Hey, we got Willie Nelson. 'nuff said. 

[Gurn Blanston]

For years I had no idea what "two Sicilies" was supposed to mean as there obviously was only *one* island of Sicily... But it sounds very romantic, if not quite as nice as "Castilia, Leon and Aragon"

Me too. One of the biggest benefits of writing this blog is that it forces me to go look up stuff that I always wanted to know about, but never took the time for. Knowing I am going to have to argue with Florestan every time, I always prepare well now.   

[Florestan]

Hey, we got Willie Nelson. 'nuff said. 

Oh my, how could I forget him? He singlehandedly balances out the whole Neapolitan School. 

[Florestan]

Me too. One of the biggest benefits of writing this blog is that it forces me to go look up stuff that I always wanted to know about, but never took the time for. Knowing I am going to have to argue with Florestan every time, I always prepare well now.   

Well, a kick in the ass makes one take two steps forward, ain´t it? 

[Jo498]

Just for the record, I learned about the "two Sicilies" some time ago (that it was two kingdoms, not two islands) but I do appreciate the detailed account by Gordo and Florestan! I think a few years ago a historian published a book about several "vanished countries" that were quite important for centuries but have ceased to exist as political entities a long time ago (like e.g. Burgundy).

[Gurn Blanston]

Just for the record, I learned about the "two Sicilies" some time ago (that it was two kingdoms, not two islands) but I do appreciate the detailed account by Gordo and Florestan! I think a few years ago a historian published a book about several "vanished countries" that were quite important for centuries but have ceased to exist as political entities a long time ago (like e.g. Burgundy).

Pre-Congress of Vienna Europe is chockful of countries like that. Having no other frame of reference, I always thought of them as 'States', but really they were much more than that. But there was always something bigger than them, whether it was a neighboring large country or a confederation or the Holy Roman Empire. For anyone to be completely fluent in all those variations, through time, will be quite a feat, I think.

[Gurn Blanston]

Not sure if it's the one you meant, but I can recommend this fascinating book on that exact subject:

Vanished Kingdoms The History of Half-Forgotten Europe
Norman Davies

Thanks for that, Soapy. It looks very interesting, I'm going to dig it up.

[Florestan]

Not sure if it's the one you meant, but I can recommend this fascinating book on that exact subject:

Vanished Kingdoms The History of Half-Forgotten Europe
Norman Davies

Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. 

[Jo498]

Unless there is a very similar book out there, I am pretty certain I meant this one. Thanks for the clarification!

As I am from the middle of Germany I am aware of many of these vanished states, duchies, counties etc. But they were usually small and here they are often preserved in some local names (of cities, districts, counties, parishes etc.) and of course often in the actual buildings (castles etc.). And as you said they were all part of the Holy Roman Empire (but so were the states of Italy).

[Karl Henning]

Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. 

Chap named Lorenzo would have a word with you out back . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. 

Well yes, of course. The huge consolidation of 'minor' (non-judgmental) states which took place in the mid-19th century went a long way towards making it easier for us to say "just Italy" or "just Germany", but it also took away our precision. Mozart wasn't Austrian from the city of Salzburg, he was a Salzburger, eventually transplanted to Austria. Just as his father was a Bavarian from Augsburg. Easier to say what we say, but not correct, really.

[Florestan]

Well yes, of course. The huge consolidation of 'minor' (non-judgmental) states which took place in the mid-19th century went a long way towards making it easier for us to say "just Italy" or "just Germany", but it also took away our precision. Mozart wasn't Austrian from the city of Salzburg, he was a Salzburger, eventually transplanted to Austria. Just as his father was a Bavarian from Augsburg. Easier to say what we say, but not correct, really.

Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". 

[Gurn Blanston]

Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". 

Exactly. Having one name for all is much more suited to the modern idiom, in which remembering things is too much trouble. It should be easier still; I vote for "Euros".... 

[Gurn Blanston]

Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". 

Although the one thing which did unite them was language; Mozart actually did think of himself as 'German' because that was his native language (dialectic differences aside). And this despite the fact that he was a Salzburger living in Austria. And he thought of Salieri as "Italian" for the same reason, even though he was, I believe, a Venetian.

Haydn was being charged a large extra fee to join the Tonkünstler-Societät in Vienna specifically because he was a foreigner since he lived, at the time, in Eisenstadt, which was almost 30 miles away!  He also considered himself a "German", even though there was really no such place, just a language.

"Nationalism" is a state of mind. 

[Karl Henning]

Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

Well, and in the 20^th c., Stravinsky wanted to have the Canticum sacrum and the Monumentum programmed together, but the Venetians refused to have the music of Gesualdo performed at St Mark's.

[North Star]

"Nationalism" is a state of mind.   

Oh, nationalism is itself a state?  0:)

Exactly. Having one name for all is much more suited to the modern idiom, in which remembering things is too much trouble. It should be easier still; I vote for "Euros".... 

Watch it, or I'll call you a Yankee. 

As long as we're in the Haus, I should say that I'll soon be spinning the Mosaïques' Op. 20/30/33.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, nationalism is itself a state?  0:)
Watch it, or I'll call you a Yankee. 

As long as we're in the Haus, I should say that I'll soon be spinning the Mosaïques' Op. 20/30/33.

Yes, if you don't mind...

I'm actually quite proud to be a Yankee, no offense taken. I thought it was just the Brits who hated being Euros... ?

Op 30? Guess my Old-Timer's Syndrome has kicked in... 

For the rest, though, sounds great. I shall join you later.