Haydn's Haus

[Wakefield]

Good info, thanks!

Hi, George! 

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey, George. All solid info so far. This is the version I have and really like. The only reason I don't rec it is because it is now OOP. I have seen each f the 3 disks for sale separately, don't know if a set could be made. They may well be available on one of the streaming services though, I wouldn't know. My only others are the Kodaly, and like Sarge, I think they are pretty good with these.

[Jo498]

But the "Hamburg soloist" actually take them as "Divertimenti for (more than just 4) strings, they play them with a small chamber ensemble, not as string quartets, right?

I do not think there is a Pro Arte op.42 (not listed at Pristine). Apart from (almost) complete recordings (Festetics and Buchberger have it as filler to op.33 on twofers, Kodaly with op.2, Auryn as filler for op.77), there is one with the Lindsay (live) and one with Leipzig (with op.77).

[Gurn Blanston]

But the "Hamburg soloist" actually take them as "Divertimenti for (more than just 4) strings, they play them with a small chamber ensemble, not as string quartets, right?

I do not think there is a Pro Arte op.42 (not listed at Pristine). Apart from (almost) complete recordings (Festetics and Buchberger have it as filler to op.33 on twofers, Kodaly with op.2, Auryn as filler for op.77), there is one with the Lindsay (live) and one with Leipzig (with op.77).

I won't say this isn't possible, but there is absolutely no indication in the liner notes that it is anything other than 2 violins, Bratsche and cello. Nor does it sound like it is.

The originals of these, back in the 1756-60 time period, specified 2 Violins, Viola & Baßo. As you are aware, this only means 4 voices, not 4 instruments. There would be nothing in the least inauthentic about playing the bass line with a cello, a violone, a bassoon, or any combination of these instruments, including all 3. We play them as quartets because circa 1765, they were published in France as quartets. But by then, the actual animal which we call a 'string quartet' was widely dispersed and popular, and it was a logical thing to add these works to the repertoire. Things weren't nearly as dogmatic back then as they became after 1800...

[George]

Hi, George! 

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. 

Thanks!

Wow, the Tatrai Op. 1 and 2 aren't listed in the discography that appears in the booklet of at least one of their other sets.

[George]

Where's the Pro Arte op 42?

My bad, it's number 42 that the Pro Arte did.

[Gurn Blanston]

My bad, it's number 42 that the Pro Arte did.

Some background on Op 42.

You nearly always find it as an add-on with Op 33, since it is short enough to fit. It is small, but excellent!

[George]

Hi, George! 

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. 

Found them and ordered!!! Only $16.50!The 3CD set includes all three Opuses that I am missing, so I am very excited!
More copies are available here.

[Wakefield]

George: I don't recall exactly the name of the guy, but some scholar (vaguely I recall he was a good one) called the Op. 42 "a polished gem" (quotation needed). The Festetics are a top choice.   

P.S.: Damn! I hadn't seen Reply #9848. 

[Wakefield]

Found them and ordered!!! Only $16.50!The 3CD set includes all three Opuses that I am missing, so I am very excited!
More copies are available: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000027C59?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

Lucky guy!!!

Congratulations. 

[Gurn Blanston]

George: I don't recall exactly the name of the guy, but some scholar (vaguely I recall he was a good one) called the Op. 42 "a polished gem" (quotation needed). The Festetics are a top choice.   

P.S.: Damn! I hadn't seen Reply #9848. 

I'd really like to meet that guy: Haydn scholars are thin on the ground! 

Festetics are indeed excellent there, but it looks like George done found what he needs. Can't beat it at the price!

[Mandryka]

Just look at these reviews of Op 50 by the Lindsays, which I thought was interesting because it raises a whole bunch of issues about how to play classical style music

Enthusiastic but sloppy, expressive but sentimental, the Lindsay String Quartet's 2003 recording of the second half of Haydn's String Quartets, Op. 50, is no better and no worse than any of the Lindsay Quartet's recordings for the past two decades. The individual players have the technique to hit the notes, but they get so carried away by the music that they do not always hit them dead on. Nor do they hit them all together as an ensemble, but rather as the mood takes them, which can result in some amazingly slovenly attacks and releases. And while the players are individually and as an ensemble very expressive, they once again get so carried away by the music that they seem not to express the particular emotions of Haydn's music, but rather express the general emotions of all music. The wit of Haydn's music is replaced by broad humor, the tenderness by a hot embrace, and the lean, hard strength by big, bulky muscles.
For those who want more from their Haydn than merely Haydn, the Lindsays are just the thing. For those who just want Haydn from their Haydn, the Lindsay Quartet will be too much. ASV's sound is close and warm.

The first of two separate CDs covering Haydn's String Quartets, Op. 50, this 2004 ASV disc presents the first half of the set, dynamically performed by the Lindsay String Quartet and recorded with exceptionally clear sound. Haydn composed these quartets for Artaria's publication in 1787 and dedicated them to Prussian king and cellist Friedrich Wilhelm II. Whether or not Haydn had him in mind for performing these pieces, it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785. Haydn's serious discourse and increased chromaticism match Mozart's tone and harmonic intricacy, though these quartets are more austere and tautly argued than Mozart's lyrically elastic and intensely expressive works. The Lindsay Quartet is fully engaged in these performances, and its vigorous playing emphasizes Haydn's jagged rhythms, pugnacious phrasing, and lean textures. Because these quartets are rigorous and sometimes quite brusque, it is appropriate that the Lindsay dispenses with some niceties of tone and expression and executes these quartets with boisterous energy and grit. Listeners may find this disc to be a somewhat bracing experience, but there is sufficient warmth and depth in the slow movements to balance the robust effect of the Lindsay Quartet's fast movements.

I find the intonation and ensemble  in the recording excruciating, but musically, poetically,  it's not without interest.

[Gurn Blanston]

Just look at these reviews of Op 50 by the Lindsays, which I thought was interesting because it raises a whole bunch of issues about how to play classical style music

I find the intonation and ensemble  in the recording excruciating, but musically, poetically,  it's not without interest.

As it happens, I listened to these just last Sunday, in memoriam Peter Cropper. I agree, I am torn to some extent also, although I didn't find it quite as bad in those departments as I've heard. But it is, just like their Mozart disks which I have, a passionate performance, and this overcomes a lot of ills. As I mentioned earlier in the Salomon 4tet discussion, some things are more important to me than others. Fortunately, I wasn't cursed with perfect pitch... 0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure. One thing I have to say about Haydn; when you have him in a box, he shows he can use that creativity for more than just music!  Check it out, if you would like.

Op 50 behind the scenes: the pale white underbelly of 18th century publishing

Thanks!

[Mandryka]

Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure. One thing I have to say about Haydn; when you have him in a box, he shows he can use that creativity for more than just music!  Check it out, if you would like.

Op 50 behind the scenes: the pale white underbelly of 18th century publishing

Thanks!

I've not had a chance to read this yet, so you may have covered this there -- there's a comment in one of the above reviews of Lindsay's op 50 "it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785." Is that right? They do sound Mozartian to me, but that's just an intuitive response, I don't know about analysis or history.

[Sergeant Rock]

Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure.

Giuseppe finally understood the publishing game, and got good at it 

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Giuseppe finally understood the publishing game, and got good at it 

Sarge

  Well, he was a genius after all. I think he got pretty creative.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've not had a chance to read this yet, so you may have covered this there -- there's a comment in one of the above reviews of Lindsay's op 50 "it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785." Is that right? They do sound Mozartian to me, but that's just an intuitive response, I don't know about analysis or history.

Since this idea is just that: someone's theory, there is no documented information that one could put into an essay and talk about. Chronologically, Haydn agreed to write (and possibly actually began) these works in 1784, which anticipated Mozart by a bit, if they were supposedly tit for tat.

Musicologists have been hard at work, comparing manuscripts and styles for decades now, looking for Mozartian influences in Op 50.  and the best they have come up with are some things on the order of; Haydn uses quite a bit more chromatics than he used to do which Mozart had always done (to which I say sure, but everyone was using more chromatics by then, so who is to say?).

The contention of this being a riposte seems to me to be based on the idea that Haydn's pride wouldn't allow him to let Mozart have the last word in his own genre. Maybe in its own way this is true, but if so, it was a private thing inside Haydn which he didn't share with anyone else, not even Mozart. So, it would require psychoanalysis, in lieu of a letter saying so.

Haydn did stop writing piano concertos and operas, and he never wrote a string quintet during a period when he may well have done so. It is certainly possible that these were subconscious concessions made to Mozart's genius. If you buy that, then it is almost mandatory to buy in to the Op 50 / 'Haydn' Quartets  'competition'.

[Mandryka]

As it happens, I listened to these just last Sunday, in memoriam Peter Cropper. I agree, I am torn to some extent also, although I didn't find it quite as bad in those departments as I've heard. But it is, just like their Mozart disks which I have, a passionate performance, and this overcomes a lot of ills. As I mentioned earlier in the Salomon 4tet discussion, some things are more important to me than others. Fortunately, I wasn't cursed with perfect pitch... 0:)

No, I was wrong to say it's excruciating. Or rather, if I listen on a cheap piece of portable equipment (like I did first time) it is, but not through a good system. Really people who write reviews should say what equipment they're using!

Anyway I relistened to op 50/2 through the good system and thought it was excellent, particularly in the finale, but really everywhere - a quartet which is not so easy to get off the page IMO.

I wonder what got into Haydn to write such a dark piece as op 50/4 - is this the most uncomfortable music Haydn wrote? That icy change in harmony in the middle of the minuet, quite extraordinarily uncomfortable. I mention it partly because I think The Lindsays were right in their element in that one - there's a live recording as well as the set

[Jo498]

I always found that op.50 was at most a very indirect reaction to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn. While op.33 was overall rather short and "light" (compared to op.20), Mozart took it as an inspiration for large scale serious works, sometimes with almost operatic gestures. Take for instance the "siciliano" variations in op.33/5 compared to the dead serious variation finale in K 421 d minor (which is also about twice as long).

So Haydn now himself wrote works on a larger scale and sometimes in more dramatic mood but not as expansive as Mozart's, rather focussing on his particular strengths: dense, and often monothematic sonata movements (despite sometimes very ordinary, "trivial" material, like the first movement of the B flat major) and variations (4 of 6 slow movements in op.50 have elements of variations).
But he might have done this anyway, even without Mozart, because in retrospect the terse and comical op.33 is the exception (in some respects).