Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

Of tangential interest here:

My one Amazon Prime Day indulgence:

[asin]B0002F6AH0[/asin]

The series has 26 episodes. Producer Jeremy Isaacs asked Noble Frankland, then director of the Imperial War Museum, to list fifteen main campaigns of the war and devoted one episode to each. The remaining eleven episodes are devoted to other matters, such as the rise of the Third Reich, home life in Britain and Germany, the experience of occupation in the Netherlands, and the Nazis' use of genocide. Episode 1 begins with a cold open describing the massacre at the French village of Oradour-sur-Glane by the Waffen SS. The same event is referenced again at the end of Episode 26, while the Dona nobis pacem (Latin for "Grant us peace") from the Missa Sancti Nicolai, composed by Joseph Haydn, can be heard. The series ends with Laurence Olivier uttering the poignant word, "Remember".

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, at least Haydn must have missed me while I was gone...   Wasn't really summer vacation though, I was busily writing a Haydn essay for the Haydn Journal, out in the Fall. Sure missed blogging though, the grammar police are so much easier on me!   

Well, we are now into 1793, a year spent, not in London, but back home in Greater Vienna, tutoring that odd young man from Bonn and getting ready for next year. Have a look at some highlights of the year, if you'd like.

Plans? That would be nice...

Thanks,

[Sergeant Rock]

Well, at least Haydn must have missed me while I was gone...

You were gone? I hadn't notice 

Seriously, I missed your blog updates. Was wondering about the next installment. And here it is! As good a read as ever. Thank you. Do you have any details about Beethoven's relationship with Haydn? Like, how did they get on? Friendly, or was there friction?

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

You were gone? I hadn't notice 

Seriously, I missed your blog updates. Was wondering about the next installment. And here it is! As good a read as ever. Thank you. Do you have any details about Beethoven's relationship with Haydn? Like, how did they get on? Friendly, or was there friction?

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge.

I will be doing an essay about that soon. Early times, like now, they got on quite well. You probably know about Haydn writing to Maximilian Franz saying how good Beethoven was doing and he should get a raise due to cost of living and all, and MF wrote back saying "well all the music you showed me, he wrote here before he left Bonn. Maybe he needs to come home...". After that, I think they were a bit less chummy, but Beethoven was Beethoven, even then, and the friction which developed later was nearly all to do with his ego. Haydn always liked and admired him, and I suppose that underneath it all, Beethoven did the same. Lots of stuff in that story!

[Sergeant Rock]

I will be doing an essay about that soon.

Looking forward to it 

Sarge

[North Star]

Rather enjoyed the beginning of my exploration of this box. I doubt I've heard much more than a dozen of the symphonies before. I listened to 1-5, 9-11, A and B today (skipped the splendid but familiar trio). I'm sure it will take years, or decades, before I know all of this music properly. 

[asin]B01BHFPU3S[/asin]

[George]

Rather enjoyed the beginning of my exploration of this box. I doubt I've heard much more than a dozen of the symphonies before. I listened to 1-5, 9-11, A and B today (skipped the splendid but familiar trio). I'm sure it will take years, or decades, before I know all of this music properly. 

[asin]B01BHFPU3S[/asin]

LOVE that box!

As one of our former members used to say - you chose wisely.

[Gurn Blanston]

Maybe you guys can answer one for me this time!!

According to legend, Beethoven once said 'I never learned anything from Haydn'. I'm sure you have all heard that, but here is the question: who did he actually say this to?  Who wrote it down that he said it to them?  I have looked in 2 dozen Beethoven bios so far, and they all say "Beethoven said later... blah blah blah...", but I have yet to find a citation where "he said to X that ' ....' ".

I'm curious if he ever actually said it at all, or if it was just something Beethoven biographers made up as part of the Great Romantic Beethoven Story.

Input appreciated.

Gurn 

[kishnevi]

Invoking the spirits of Google and Wikipedia led me to this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_his_contemporaries

There is evidence that Haydn assigned his student composition exercises based on the Fux text Gradus ad Parnassum. During the course of the year, however, the relationship between the two men soured. According to contemporary accounts, the issue surfaced most notably upon the publication of Beethoven's first compositions, the Op. 1 piano trios. Wishing to assist the young composer, Haydn suggested that Beethoven include the phrase "pupil of Haydn" underneath his name in order to garner advantage from Haydn's considerable fame. There is generally strong evidence of Haydn's goodwill toward Beethoven, including an interest in taking his pupil with him on his second London voyage, and the personal missives Haydn sent to Beethoven's early patron, Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Cologne.

Beethoven, however, seems to have harbored ill-will toward Haydn during various points of his life. At the suggestion that he include the phrase "pupil of Haydn", Beethoven bristled. According to the account left by Ferdinand Ries, "Beethoven was unwilling to, because, as he said, although he had some instruction from Haydn, he had never learned anything from him." The bad feelings produced by the Op. 1 Trios were compounded upon their first performance. Haydn, present in the audience, is reported to have recommended against the publication of the C minor Trio (Op. 1, No. 3) since he suspected the music would not gain public acceptance. Beethoven considered the C minor the best of the trios and interpreted Haydn's advice as an indication of his envy.

Probably about as specific as you can expect for this.

[Gurn Blanston]

Invoking the spirits of Google and Wikipedia led me to this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_his_contemporaries
Probably about as specific as you can expect for this.

Ah, very good!

I should have suspected Ries.
I should have expected Wiki!

Thanks, Jeffrey: that'll teach me to look in stinking books! 

[Jo498]

Beethoven was very headstrong and arrogant (Haydn called him "Grossmogul" a German expression for the Mughal Emperor of India) and Haydn had better things to do than correct counterpoint exercises, so this kind of teaching was not very successful. I guess that this is what Beethoven meant when he said that he had "never learned anything from Haydn". It is obvious (and I pretty sure Beethoven would have conceded this) that Beethoven studied and learned quite a bit from Haydns actual composition. But the direct teaching relationship failed for several reasons and did not last long.

BTW the wikipedia section is somewhat lopsided about Beethoven and Goethe as it seems to miss the most famous episode about their encounter at the Teplitz Spa

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Beethoven-in-Teplitz-Absolutely-Uncontrolled-Personality-

[Gurn Blanston]

So while I was looking at the Ries thing, I went ahead and did some further reading too. There are so many things going on there; the more you read, the less you seem sure about.

But in the end I endeavored to persevere, and here is what I found. I hope you enjoy it too.

A Mogul in the Making?

Thanks,

[Wakefield]

I just wanted to point out this excellent disk by the Handel+Haydn Society, conducted by Harry Christophers:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

I have rarely felt myself more comfortable with other disks conducted by Christophers, a conductor usually focused on Renaissance and Baroque repertoire.

Apparently, a Baroque training isn't a bad thing to perform Haydn. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I just wanted to point out this excellent disk by the Handel+Haydn Society, conducted by Harry Christophers:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

I have rarely felt myself more comfortable with other disks conducted by Christophers, a conductor usually focused on Renaissance and Baroque repertoire.

Apparently, a Baroque training isn't a bad thing to perform Haydn. 

Quite amazing: I listened to it just this afternoon, along with its companion. Apparently they are going to be at least part of a 3 disk set. I'm very pleased with them.

[Wakefield]

Quite amazing: I listened to it just this afternoon, along with its companion. Apparently they are going to be at least part of a 3 disk set. I'm very pleased with them.

Excellent! I greatly enjoyed the works chosen, but as a programatic recording of 3 disks has a lot more sense.

I'm a great fan of this American band from its recording of the concerti grossi, op. 6, by Handel (conducted by Mr. Hogwood).

[Gurn Blanston]

Excellent! I greatly enjoyed the works chosen, but as a programatic recording of 3 disks has a lot more sense.

I'm a great fan of this American band from its recording of the concerti grossi, op. 6, by Handel (conducted by Mr. Hogwood).

Yes, I'm quite looking forward to Symphony #8, my favorite of the set. I imagine it will have La Reine, those being the 3 Paris symphonies with names, and the other VC in A.  No telling where they go after that, if indeed they do carry it further. Hope they do, I quite like the results. Aisslinn Nosky is a hot fiddle, too!   

Did you get a gmail from me last week?

Cheers,

[Pat B]

Ah, very good!

I should have suspected Ries.
I should have expected Wiki!

Thanks, Jeffrey: that'll teach me to look in stinking books! 

Wikipedia is only as good as its references, and that entire section has no references.

My books are currently in boxes, but the Robbins-Landon book on Beethoven does (IIRC) mention this statement. But the implication was that Beethoven was not -- or at least did not perceive himself to be -- a priority for Haydn, i.e. "Haydn did not teach me anything" but not "Haydn could not teach me anything." Haydn did leave for London, and Beethoven was appreciative of Albrechtsberger. (/IIRC)

None of which means that Haydn "did Beethoven wrong," or even that Beethoven ever felt that Haydn had done him wrong. It just means that Haydn was very busy at that time.

And if Beethoven said it to Ries during the op. 1 disagreement, as implied on that wikipedia page, then we must be extra-cautious about making grand conclusions. For one, Ries may not have gotten it quite right. More importantly, it may have been said in a short-lived huff that did not represent Beethoven's long-term opinion.

That quote and the dispute over op. 1 paint a dramatic picture of tension between these two giants. But with other evidence suggesting a cordial relationship, my sense is that those two situations have been blown out of proportion, that reality may not have been so juicy.

[Mandryka]

Anyone heard the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op 20? Unless someone tells me it makes some astonishing contribution, I'll wait till it turns up on spotify.

[Gurn Blanston]

Wikipedia is only as good as its references, and that entire section has no references.

My books are currently in boxes, but the Robbins-Landon book on Beethoven does (IIRC) mention this statement. But the implication was that Beethoven was not -- or at least did not perceive himself to be -- a priority for Haydn, i.e. "Haydn did not teach me anything" but not "Haydn could not teach me anything." Haydn did leave for London, and Beethoven was appreciative of Albrechtsberger. (/IIRC)

None of which means that Haydn "did Beethoven wrong," or even that Beethoven ever felt that Haydn had done him wrong. It just means that Haydn was very busy at that time.

And if Beethoven said it to Ries during the op. 1 disagreement, as implied on that wikipedia page, then we must be extra-cautious about making grand conclusions. For one, Ries may not have gotten it quite right. More importantly, it may have been said in a short-lived huff that did not represent Beethoven's long-term opinion.

That quote and the dispute over op. 1 paint a dramatic picture of tension between these two giants. But with other evidence suggesting a cordial relationship, my sense is that those two situations have been blown out of proportion, that reality may not have been so juicy.

Actually, that's rather where I was going with all that. The reality of Beethoven giving Haydn old works when he posted the Elector is certainly not imaginary, although whatever his motivations for it may have been are open to supposition. 

I'm not surprised that Wiki doesn't give references for that statement. I have it in a dozen places and none of them do. And one place says that he said it 'several times in later life'. But not to whom.  I don't doubt he would have said it in a fit of pique, people do. I doubt highly that it was a great factor of his life. Funny how all biographers have to mention it though. It gives it undue importance.

When you ever get your books unboxed, look in one of the later volumes of Landon, I can't remember now if it was 4 or 5, and he treats the topic of Haydn and Beethoven rather extensively. Interesting reading.

[Gurn Blanston]

Anyone heard the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op 20? Unless someone tells me it makes some astonishing contribution, I'll wait till it turns up on spotify.

No, I haven't heard it yet. Last I checked it wasn't yet available in US, and I felt I could wait.