Pierre Boulez (1925-2016)

[Mandryka]

Thank you both for your clarifications and approaches.

Since the Livre pour Quatuor does not really fit with these, which other work would you recommend me to focus that would best fit, so to speak, with what you have sought/found in Boulez?

Also @Spotted Horses .

Thank you.

Have a listen to the 12 notations. There's a piano version and a later orchestration. It's good! You'll like it.

[Papy Oli]

Have a listen to the 12 notations. There's a piano version and a later orchestration. It's good! You'll like it.

Thank you @Mandryka .Will try those.

[Mandryka]

Thank you @Mandryka .Will try those.

David Fray recorded the original piano version, and Gielen recorded the later orchestrations.

[Papy Oli]

David Fray recorded the original piano version, and Gielen recorded the later orchestrations.

Added those two on Presto.

The DG box is Aimard and Boulez respectively (I-IV & VII for the latter,bsame as Gielen)

[Karl Henning]

To the Boulez aficionados in the house:

I am currently listening to the Livre pour Quatuor posted above by @Mandryka , just going through IV.

I was reading the booklet earlier on and because of the amount of "technicalities" mentioned within due to the arrangement/completion element, I wanted to ask: Do you enjoy Boulez's works overall thanks to some composing/theory knowledge that helps you understand and therefore enjoy the structure of it all ? Or do you just enjoy because it talks to you simply on a "melodic" level (I have none of the former, so would solely rely on the latter)?

Just to be clear: It is not a facetious question, nor is my use of quotation marks on melodic (just for the lack of a better word I guess). The reason I ask is that the Boulez DG box is one that I (willingly    ) dip a toe into every month or so and I give a go to one work or another. Be it, Pli, Marteau, Derives, Notations, Sur Incises, Répons... It intrigues me (somewhat shortly, at best) but it never reaches enjoyment levels. Just like now with Diotima today. Made it to IV. Without knowing what's what.

I have made tiny in-roads with other "prickly" (to me) composers (say Berg, Webern, Schonberg, Schnittke, Bartok SQ ..) but Boulez just eludes me.

I don't concern myself with theory at all when listening to Boulez. Like @Spotted Horses I receive it as sonority.

[Papy Oli]

I don't concern myself with theory at all when listening to Boulez. Like @Spotted Horses I receive it as sonority.

That's fair.

I just would like that sonority to make a little bit of sense or finding something beyond only intriguing. Maybe one day it'll come to me.

Maybe tomorrow with Notations 

[San Antone]

Since the Livre pour Quatuor does not really fit with these, which other work would you recommend me to focus on that would best fit, so to speak, with what you have sought/found in Boulez?

Two of my favorite works by Boulez have been recently collected on a recording only available on Bandcamp, afaik: Éclat-Multiples and sur Incises.

[Mandryka]

Added those two on Presto.

The DG box is Aimard and Boulez respectively (I-IV & VII for the latter,bsame as Gielen)

My own view, and this is a contentious one, is that if someone other than Boulez conducted Boulez then that's probably a better bet, with the exception of the very early Domaine Musical recordings.

[Papy Oli]

I listened to Notations by Fray yesterday. That didn't really tickled me much.

I also listened to Eclats and Sur Incises I (the only 2 full tracks as samples on Bandcamp, as per advice from @San Antone ).

The mind drifted away at some point, both tracks merged into one another with me noticing. Don't laugh but what came into my mind during Sur Incises was... Bullitt.. albeit a nightmarish drug-addled version    I couldn't shake the idea off, it made me laugh but enjoy the work in a twisted way.

Same feeling earlier today with Notations by Gielen 

So there we go, my entry point to Boulez is that he is Lalo Schiffrin's acid-popping brother.   

[ritter]

@Papy Oli , apologies for being late to this party. I've been very tied up with work this week.

Great to see you trying to explore the music of Boulez, even if the results have perhaps not been the most rewarding, and on occasion unexpected.

If I may, the recommendation I'd give you is to listen to Le marteau sans maître. There you'll find, in essence, everything that (IMO, and that of many others)  makes the music of this composer so great. The richness of timbre (resulting from the imaginative scoring), the rhythmic inventiveness, and the strength in expression.

And, to answer your original question: I do not listen to Boulez's music following any theoretical precepts or such. I listen to it as I would listen to any other "classical" music, enjoying what it offers to a non musically professional listener like me. And it offers a lot, but not "melody" in the usual sense of the word.

[Papy Oli]

@Papy Oli , apologies for being late to this party. I've been very tied up with work this week.

Great to see you trying to explore the music of Boulez, even if the results have perhaps not been the most rewarding, and on occasion unexpected.

If I may, the recommendation I'd give you is to listen to Le marteau sans maître. There you'll find, in essence, everything that (IMO, and that of many others)  makes the music of this composer so great. The richness of timbre (resulting from the imaginative scoring), the rhythmic inventiveness, and the strength in expression.

And, to answer your original question: I do not listen to Boulez's music following any theoretical precepts or such. I listen to it as I would listen to any other "classical" music, enjoying what it offers to a non musically professional listener like me. And it offers a lot, but not "melody" in the usual sense of the word.

Hi Rafael

I knew you'd pop in at some point too 

Thank you for your thoughts. I have tried Marteau a couple of times in the past so it is one that is always on mind for my Boulez attempts, like Pli or Explosante-Fixe for instance.

I am hopeful that, a bit like it's been with JSB with years of trying, if I find a successful entry point or three, the rest will unfold from there.

I'll keep the thread posted.   

[Papy Oli]

My own view, and this is a contentious one, is that if someone other than Boulez conducted Boulez then that's probably a better bet, with the exception of the very early Domaine Musical recordings.

Any "non-Boulez" Boulez recordings one should consider beyond the couple already mentioned by @San Antone and yourself ?

[Mandryka]

Any "non-Boulez" Boulez recordings one should consider beyond the couple already mentioned by @San Antone and yourself ?

Yes, I can say straight away, because I listened to it this morning, try Daniel Kawka's Marteau sans maitre. Another great favourite of mine is Diego Masson's Domaines recording

https://www.discogs.com/release/1237064-Pierre-Boulez-Michel-Portal-Musique-Vivante-Diego-Masson-Domaines

(Hats off to you for persevering!)

[San Antone]

Any "non-Boulez" Boulez recordings one should consider beyond the couple already mentioned by @San Antone and yourself ?

There is recording of Sur Incises by Daniel Barenboim leading the Boulez Ensemble.



Eclat is on this record by Pascal Gallois:



Daniel Barenboim has a recording, Hommage à Boulez which includes a number of his major works in addition to the ones on the previous recording I posted:



I'm sure there are others, I want to say David Robertson at St. Louis released something of Boulez' but I am not sure.

[Papy Oli]

Yes, I can say straight away, because I listened to it this morning, try Daniel Kawka's Marteau sans maitre. Another great favourite of mine is Diego Masson's Domaines recording

https://www.discogs.com/release/1237064-Pierre-Boulez-Michel-Portal-Musique-Vivante-Diego-Masson-Domaines

(Hats off to you for persevering!)

Thank you. The Domaines one is on the DG box so it is ok.

I can't find a Marteau with Kawka, did you mean his Mémoriales or Dérives by any chance?

[Papy Oli]

I'm sure there are others, I want to say David Robertson at St. Louis released something of Boulez' but I am not sure.

I have added those three to the streaming list. Thank you very much.

I have found a Robertson record with Ritual in Memoriam ?

That will keep me quiet for a while 

[Mandryka]

Thank you. The Domaines one is on the DG box so it is ok.

I can't find a Marteau with Kawka, did you mean his Mémoriales or Dérives by any chance?

No, though the Derives is good too I think.

I forgot earlier, my fabourite Boulez recording is not commercially available, Pintscher conducting Pli selon pli. It's on youtube though - here's a link to the first part, though it's all there I think


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W56pQqEVetA

When it was created, Pli selon pli was criticised by the hard modernists for being too sensual.  Pintscher embraces the sensuality. And the good news is you don't have to understand Mallarmé to enjoy it. Though actually looking at it it kimd of does make sense of something in the music (that is me being pretentious.)

Comme furtive d'elle et visible je sens
Que se dévêt pli selon pli la pierre veuve

(WTF is that d'elle about?!)

This is the Kawka Marteau


https://www.discogs.com/release/23423936-Pierre-Boulez-Philippe-Manoury-Le-Marteau-Sans-Ma%C3%AEtre-B-Partita?srsltid=AfmBOoq85mIyfcRtF33JLFQoJ3gneiUYiZeFNSsmgP6oQjW6aW-EvKnY

[Papy Oli]

No, though the Derives is good too I think.

I forgot earlier, my fabourite Boulez recording is not commercially available, Pintscher conducting Pli selon pli. It's on youtube though - here's a link to the first part, though it's all there I think


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W56pQqEVetA

When it was created, Pli selon pli was criticised by the hard modernists for being too sensual.  Pintscher embraces the sensuality. And the good news is you don't have to understand Mallarmé to enjoy it.

This is the Kawka Marteau


https://www.discogs.com/release/23423936-Pierre-Boulez-Philippe-Manoury-Le-Marteau-Sans-Ma%C3%AEtre-B-Partita?srsltid=AfmBOoq85mIyfcRtF33JLFQoJ3gneiUYiZeFNSsmgP6oQjW6aW-EvKnY

Thank you. Kawka is not on Presto but it is on Qobuz, I'll sample it there. 

[CRCulver]

Another great favourite of mine is Diego Masson's Domaines recording

That Domaines got almost no commercial recordings, and the most available recording in the digital era was not conducted by Boulez himself, is one of the real oddities of Boulez's catalogue.

[brewski]

(Hats off to you for persevering!)

I don't have much to add to this great discussion, but did want to echo Mandryka's comment above. Boulez can feel a bit intimidating, but patience with his work can pay off later.

Will just add, as I've said elsewhere, Répons is one of his most sheerly beautiful works, and I've often thought that Debussy might have written something similar, had he lived into the late 20th century and worked with electronics. This version with Matthias Pintscher and the Ensemble intercontemporain is quite good, and I think it can be helpful to actually see the musicians performing it.