Democracy and postmodernism

[Florestan]

But what Sean is going on about has nothing to do with democracy and more to do with capitalism, insofar as what companies are going to want to promote for sale, what is going to be better for TV ratings, etc etc (insofar as were talking about "standards of greatness" in art).  If he's got a problem, then he should find ways of promoting his "standards of greatness" USING a democratic forum & USING the economic system of capitalism in a way that may very well enrich people all the more.  What are some ways of creating incentives for creating some interest in these things?  (and without "dumbing it down"?)  The problem is combatting trends in the capitalist market, not just blaming democracy & thinking eliminating it will solve the problem.  That's just plain ludicrous.

Right.

[Florestan]

In Afghanistan, before the US went and ruined it.

Yeah, right. The Talibans were libertarians and Mullah Omar's daily reading was Capitalism Magazine.

[Ephemerid]

In Afghanistan, before the US went and ruined it.

Was that a joke? 

[Sean]

Florestan, the destruction is in the insidious attitude to the arts and high culture. Before they were respected in the wider society as the height of human achievement- even if the masses didn't understand them. Now as democracy has developed, the masses' inherent lack of interest in it, because they literally don't have the minds to understand or appreciate, has risen to the surface of society, ie progressive rule by the majority, and the official culture, that is to say the class of cultural products that are taken to be the accepted standard in life, the height of our achievement, is now pop culture.

Virtually no great music has been written for years and years- the brains no longer want to go into it; performance standards are also in decline, and don't argue- the level of musical insight is not the same. UK art music radio has been utterly vulgarized and brutalized, and there is now little more than art music sold, chopped up and treated as worthless peripheral pop by fools, nobodies and scum who know the lies they're pumping out.

Concert halls and theartres sell music and opera with the fear and horror of not making their finances work in the capitalist setting- thus necessarily completely misrepresenting the music, selling it and lying about it as much as possible, as much as the idiot audience wants, to present it as species of film music, world music, folk music, jazz, musical, vaudeville, etc, etc. If the environment is destroyed nothing can flourish.

You should be able to see this. No more questions.

[Sean]

Ephemerid, Florestan- the media, concert halls, theatres cannot sell art as art because the majority of the paying public and potential audience cannot and cannot ever experience art for what it is- they are morons. How many people do you know who appreciate music? Obviously not many or you wouldn't be here.

Hence art MUST be dumbed down if it is to be financially viable- it's very simple and there's nothing even the most well intentioned impressarios can do about it in a capitalist environment.

[Ephemerid]

Virtually no great music has been written for years and years- the brains no longer want to go into it; performance standards are also in decline, and don't argue- the level of musical insight is not the same. UK art music radio has been utterly vulgarized and brutalized, and there is now little more than art music sold, chopped up and treated as worthless peripheral pop by fools, nobodies and scum who know the lies they're pumping out.

*wah*

[Ephemerid]

they are undead morons.

Nice to see you really give a damn about the world, Sean.  I'm glad people like you are powerless.  Guess what?  People are different.  Deal with it.

BTW, I am fond of some rock, jazz, folk, blues, various music from all over the world.  I guess since I also like classical though, I'm only an undead half-moron?   

[head-case]

Yeah, right. The Talibans were libertarians and Mullah Omar's daily reading was Capitalism Magazine.

What you had was a group of ruthless war-lords all vying for the biggest piece of the pie.  With no central government it was laissez-faire.  To bad the Taliban won.

[bwv 1080]

What you had was a group of ruthless war-lords all vying for the biggest piece of the pie.  With no central government it was laissez-faire.  To bad the Taliban won.

That is a strawman.  Laissez-faire does not assume anarchy.  Capitalism, by anyone's definition, requires a central government with laws, property rights, enforcable contracts etc.

Hong Kong (at least pre-PRC) has always been pointed to by Milton Friedman and others as the ideal to look to

[head-case]

Nice to see you really give a damn about the world, Sean.  I'm glad people like you are powerless.  Guess what?  People are different.  Deal with it.

As usual, Sean mistakes his own alienation from society as a breakdown of society.  The fact that we are able to function in society indicates that we are inferior to Sean.   

[bwv 1080]

Maybe someone should start a poll - Which world would you rather live in: this one or the one that Sean would be happy with

[Sean]

Ephemerid, I listen to non-classical also. But classical as well. Unlike the masses.

[Ephemerid]

Florestan, the destruction is in the insidious attitude to the arts and high culture. Before they were respected in the wider society as the height of human achievement- even if the masses didn't understand them....

"In the shadow under the green visor of the cap Ignatius J. Reilly's supercilious blue and yellow eyes looked down upon the other people waiting under the clock at the D.H. Holmes department store, studying the crowd of people for signs of bad taste in dress. Several of the outfits, Ignatius noticed, were new enough and expensive enough to be properly considered offenses against taste and decency. Possession of anything new or expensive only reflected a person's lack of theology and geometry; it could even cast doubts upon one's soul."

John Kennedy Toole, A Confederacy of Dunces

[bhodges]

John Kennedy Toole, A Confederacy of Dunces

Just dropping in to say...one of my favorite books. 

--Bruce

[head-case]

Maybe someone should start a poll - Which world would you rather live in: this one or the one that Sean would be happy with

I think Sean's world would be like living under Chairman Mao during the "Great Leap Forward."

[drogulus]

    Capitalism makes intellectuals unhappy because it proves ordinary people don't need them. It's the same with democracy. Postmodernism is an interpretive game for the educated, so it isn't surprising that economic and political freedom wouldn't fare well.

"In the shadow under the green visor of the cap Ignatius J. Reilly's supercilious blue and yellow eyes looked down upon the other people waiting under the clock at the D.H. Holmes department store, studying the crowd of people for signs of bad taste in dress. Several of the outfits, Ignatius noticed, were new enough and expensive enough to be properly considered offenses against taste and decency. Possession of anything new or expensive only reflected a person's lack of theology and geometry; it could even cast doubts upon one's soul."

John Kennedy Toole, A Confederacy of Dunces

     Wonderful!

     

[Lethevich]

Capitalism makes intellectuals unhappy because it proves ordinary people don't need them. It's the same with democracy. Postmodernism is an interpretive game for the educated, so it isn't surprising that economic and political freedom wouldn't fare well.

That's quite a quotable set of sentences you've made there...

[paulb]

so let china go form a coalition with europe , india and russia.
Bush announced today a  meeting to be held in new orleans of a   trade pack with canada and mexico.
LONG LIVE NORTH AMERICA!!!!
WE RULE BABY!!

[head-case]

so let china go form a coalition with europe , india and russia.
Bush announced today a  meeting to be held in new orleans of a   trade pack with canada and mexico.
LONG LIVE NORTH AMERICA!!!!
WE RULE BABY!!

That's the attitude that will send us to oblivion.

[M forever]

so let china go form a coalition with europe , india and russia.
Bush announced today a  meeting to be held in new orleans of a   trade pack with canada and mexico.
LONG LIVE NORTH AMERICA!!!!
WE RULE BABY!!

A trade pack? Seriously man, you are embarrassing your fellow American citizens with your horrible written English. That doesn't rule at all.