A different cut on beginners' classical music

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, I agree there is something to be said for Teresa's choices as enticement for new listeners.  It would have be OK of she had left it at that, but no ...  For those of us who long ago transcended Disney Fantasia music, her disparagement of so much great music and composers is both offensive and ridiculous.

But even Fantasia (the original version, that is) included the Bach-Stokowski Toccata and Fugue, the Beethoven Pastoral, and the Rite of Spring in addition to the hippos dancing to Ponchielli's Dance of the Hours. (The last two of these were cut, and the Stravinsky one might say was massacred, but at least they were there.) Fantasia was on the whole an honest and highly successful attempt to unite good, solid standards from the typical 1940 music-appreciation class with the delightful qualities of Disney animation. Yet "Teresa," who won't include the Beethoven 5th, Mozart Jupiter, or Tchaikovsky 5th symphony in her "Power" list (though somehow Mahler 1 and the New World make the cut), lists the Bartok Music for Strings, Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra, and Ives's Three Place [sic] in New England among her choices. Is she serious? Has she actually heard any of this music?

[Fëanor]

But even Fantasia (the original version, that is) included the Bach-Stokowski Toccata and Fugue, the Beethoven Pastoral, and the Rite of Spring in addition to the hippos dancing to Ponchielli's Dance of the Hours. (The last two of these were cut, and the Stravinsky one might say was massacred, but at least they were there.) Fantasia was on the whole an honest and highly successful attempt to unite good, solid standards from the typical 1940 music-appreciation class with the delightful qualities of Disney animation. ...

Conceded regarding Fantasia 

[andy]

I agree her list is ridiculous, misguided and ignorant. I suppose she is entitled to her opinion, however ludicrous it may be.

I do feel, however, that changing people's perception of classical from Bach/Mozart to Rite of Spring, even more modern pieces like Ligeti's Atmospheres would attract new fans. And we might get some more exciting programming in concert halls!

And "power orchestra"?? WTF? Is this like when they amp the violins and hook 'em up to a wa-wa pedal?

[ChamberNut]

The key thing is attracting people towards classical music.

I was attracted towards classical music by the music in Stanley Kubrick films.  Specifically, the music used in A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, Barry Lyndon, 2001: A Space Odyssey and Eyes Wide Shut.

Wendy/Walter Carlos electronica music used in A Clockwork Orange, piqued my curiosity about Beethoven, and the 9th Symphony.  I started off by getting the soundtrack to the movie, a CD of the 9th symphony, a 1 disk "best of" Beethoven, and finally the complete symphonies.  From that point on, there has never been any turning back.  I became a passionate fan of classical music for life.

[greg]

disgusting

[Stonemason]

Not too much more dry or boring as Schubert chamber music

methinks someones ears are in the closed position

[Josquin des Prez]

This is what happens when you let women get in charge of thing. Erm, wait.

The key thing is attracting people towards classical music.

The key thing is not to give people the wrong impression about classical music.

[jochanaan]

Now, now, remember this admonition from another Disney animated classic:  "If ya can't say somethin' nice, don't say nothin' at all."

I forgave Teresa everything when I saw she had included Varèse's Ionisation.

[Fëanor]

Now, now, remember this admonition from another Disney animated classic:  "If ya can't say somethin' nice, don't say nothin' at all."

I forgave Teresa everything when I saw she had included Varèse's Ionisation.

Although Ionisation did seem a little out of character for Teresa who has said that much avante garde music makes her want to "hide under the couch".   

Read some of Teresa's comments in response to another post of mine here ...
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=music&n=156943&highlight=Twenty+Boring+Pieces&r=&session=

[Florestan]

I find that most orchestral classical music written prior to 1800 is too academic and boring

Not too much more dry or boring as Schubert chamber music, except for maybe Brahms chamber music

The person who utters such nonsense is not worth our time, ladies and gentlemen. 

[Teresa]

My articles "Classical Music for music lovers who don't think they like Classical Music"   http://sacdlives.blogspot.com/2009/02/classical-music-for-music-lovers-who.html and " The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music"   http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue35/classical_music.htm have caused quite a controversy here that I would like make some clarifications and answer some questions posted.  Also due to a recent web site redesign I need to provide the current links.

First off these lists are for listeners who have rejected traditional Classical music and not listeners who already love Classical music.  Classical music is large enough to included everyone!  There are millions of Classical compositions and not everyone has to like the same pieces.

When I ask people who claim to not like or hate Classical music why they don't like it, the number one answer is it's boring.    I tell them not all Classical music is boring, I play for them something really exciting and watch the shock on their face and the wonder of discovery in their eyes.   Ever since the 1970's I seen reviews dismiss the Classical music I love as banal that I knew I had to take action or the Classical music I love would disappear and no longer be composed.  This began with my print newsletter "The Audio Iconoclast" from 1995 and continues thru this very day on my website. 

Were it not for Art Rock's adaptation's of some of the most exciting music to be found in Classical music I would have NEVER discovered Classical music at all as I do not like the type of Classical music played on the FM radio stations in any of the cities I have ever lived.   I did not like the type Classical music I was exposed to in high school in my music classes.  Emerson, Lake and Palmer introduced me to Prokofiev"s "Dance of the Evil God and the Pagan Monsters" from the Scythian Suite, Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition", Copland's "Hoedown" from Rodeo, and dozens of other works.  After purchasing Herbert von Karajan's version of "Pictures At An Exhibition" on LP back in the 1970's I was on the way to discovering a whole world of Classical music that was totally hidden from me!

On the way I discovered thousands of Classical compositions I absolutely abhor and most are on these so-called Basic Repertoire lists.   With the invention of the Internet no one need waste thousands of dollars on unliked compositions we can now hear a work before we purchase it. 

Now to answer some questions:

1) Don "Baroque" is not Power Orchestral Music and I do own and listen to some baroque music. I would never recommend it to someone who thinks all Classical music is boring.   The genre of Classical Music is big enough for everyone to love, just because I like different composers and different pieces does not in one bit diminish my love of Classical music. 

2) Norbeone: Bach wrote absolute music not Power Orchestral Music.  Here is the Bach from my collection: 
BACH, JOHANN SEBASTIAN (1685-1750)
  Brandenburg Concertos (6)
    Gustav Leonhardt Ensemble [2 LPs] abc Classics AB-67020/2
  Choral Prelude: Wir glauben all' an einen Got "Giant Fugue" (Trans. Stokowski)
  Prelude in E-Flat Minor for Orchestra (Trans. Stokowski)
    Stokowski, Czech Philharmonic [Cassette] London Phase 4 Stereo C 224497
  Sonatas Nos. 1-3 for Viola de Gamba and Harpsichord
    Cyr, Grew [LP] McGill University Records 78007
    Meints, Doris Ornstein [LP] Gasparo GS-212
  Toccata and Fugue in D Minor for Organ, BWV 565
    Morris [LP] Crystal Clear Records CCS 7010

3) Feamor how can you say I don't like Classical music in general?   Classical music is my favorite music of all and there are enough different variations on the art form to make everyone happy.   This is the point of my articles Classical music does not belong to a select few but to every music lover who can derive pleasure from it!   

4) Lethe how dare you call the Classical music I love "second rate"!  I agree a lot of it is unjustly obscure but I am trying my best to help these wonderful works become better know!   Did not read the title of the list "Power Orchestral Music"?  You sound like some of the arrogant establishment I'm trying to overcome!   So you have a problem with Ralph Vaughan Williams very enjoyable Folk Song Suite; Toccata Marziale and The Wasps?

5) Gurn Blanston Power Orchestral Music is thrilling, exciting Classical music with lots of drive, energy, rhythm and beat and is seasoned with colorful percussion effects.  It has an organismic quality that often sends goosebumps throughout ones body.   In short a joy ride for not only the ears but the entire body.

All of the composers of these works are Classical composers writing Classical works.  Just because you do not like them does not mean they are not Classical.

6) ChamberNut I am sorry that you do not like Gershwin's Cuban Overture or Ravel's Bolero.   Have you every listened to Bolero with the lights out and let the music flow over your body building gradually into a giant climax.  This work gives me a full body orgasm when listened to that way.  It is one giant powerful crescendo.  BTW I did consider Beethoven's 6th " the Pastorale" with the excellent thunderstorm movement. I used to own all 9 of Beethoven's Symphonies but the 6th was the only one that stood up for me on repeated listening.  I do like the opening of the 5th, and the beginning of the second movement of the 9th but not enough to keep the whole discs.

7) Mr. Online I came from "Planet Rock" and I am not alone, you can no longer keep Classical music all to yourselves.  We want it and we want the good stuff!  We don't want music with good taste, we want music that tastes good!

I like Orff's Carmina Burana but even though it's exciting it doesn't really follow under the guidelines of Power Orchestra Music but it is my very favorite choral work.   

Hey I like the "impressionistic" Beethoven's 6th Symphony, I couldn't list everything.  The list is just a starting point for exploration.

Sforzando watch "Fantasia" again and you will see Leopold Stokowski describe Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor as "absolute music"  BTW I own the original organ version and do enjoy it, but even you would have to admit this is not powerful Orchestral music although it is powerful in it's own right.  Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony almost made the list but his symphonic poems are more powerful and exciting.  Yes I have heard all of this music and their are more unjustly obscure music as you can see as I have added my Classical music collection at the end of the list. 

9) Andy before you call my list "ridiculous, misguided and ignorant" have you even heard a tenth of the musical works on my lists?

10) Stonemason I reserve the right to abhor the chamber works of Brahms and Schubert, these are the very definitions of musical hell for me! 

11) And finally to Florestan evidently the lists are not for you.  As I have always said NO ONE likes the same things and should never held in ridicule for not liking them.  And that is my beef with the Classical music establishment.  Classical can indeed be for everyone, please do not scare them away!

[greg]

First off these lists are for listeners who have rejected traditional Classical music and not listeners who already love Classical music.  Classical music is large enough to included everyone!  There are millions of Classical compositions and not everyone has to like the same pieces.

i guess a list like that is better than nothing, for people who already say no to classical......
but yeah, for us it wouldn't work since it wasn't intended for us.

When I ask people who claim to not like or hate Classical music why they don't like it, the number one answer is it's boring.    I tell them not all Classical music is boring, I play for them something really exciting and watch the shock on their face and the wonder of discovery in their eyes.   

i really wonder why they say that!? Maybe all they've ever heard was Baroque music and Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker?
i've always felt seperated from everyone else since I'm the only one I've ever known who thinks classical is exciting and 90% of popular music boring...


Teresa, here's a couple I'd recommend, for Goths: 





and for Emos:  0:)

[Josquin des Prez]

When I ask people who claim to not like or hate Classical music why they don't like it, the number one answer is it's boring.    I tell them not all Classical music is boring.

"I don't like Bach, his music is boring! Well ok then, let's play something really exciting now"

Brilliant.

[greg]

"I don't like Bach, his music is boring! Well ok then, let's play something really exciting now"

Brilliant.

let's play Schoenberg! 

(and then later let's warm up to Bach  0:))

[Symphonien]

let's play Schoenberg! 

(and then later let's warm up to Bach  0:))

Schoenberg's Bach orchestrations, maybe?

[knight66]

Everyone's journey is different and no matter how someone would guide a listener, they will go off and explore things for themselves.

And that is just as well.

There is a good smattering there of things I don't know. The main issue for anyone coming fresh to music and deciding to try the list, is that a lot of the pieces are short. To obtain a specific piece would also entail getting music that is not on the list. So, at once people are exploring for themselves.

I like the sound of this piece; the conjunction of the two names especially. I might try to find it.

JACK END
  Blues for a Killed Kat

Mike

[Fëanor]

My articles "Classical Music for Everyone" http://www.analoglovers.com/page12.html and " The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music" http://www.analoglovers.com/page13.html have caused quite a controversy here that I would like make some clarifications and answer some questions posted.  Also due to a recent web site redesign I need to provide the current links.

First off these lists are for listeners who have rejected traditional Classical music and not listeners who already love Classical music.  Classical music is large enough to included everyone!  There are millions of Classical compositions and not everyone has to like the same pieces.
...
On the way I discovered thousands of Classical compositions I absolutely abhor and most are on these so-called Basic Repertoire lists.   With the invention of the Internet no one need waste thousands of dollars on unliked compositions we can now hear a work before we purchase it. 
...
3) Feamor how can you say I don't like Classical music in general?   Classical music is my favorite music of all and there are enough different variations on the art form to make everyone happy.   This is the point of my articles Classical music does not belong to a select few but to every music lover who can derive pleasure from it!   
...

Teresa, thanks for joining us and providing you comments.  As I said earlier, you are obviously an accomplished listener to many musical genres.

Classical music is certainly diverse and I'll defend anyone's right to like one subgenre better than another.  (I'm making efforts to appreciate Bruckner, for example, but so far not much luck.)  What is disturbing, however, is your exclusive focus on "power orchestral" music, while mostly dismissing Baroque, "abhoring" chamber music, and wanting to "hide under the couch" in case of avant garde music.

Well OK, there are quite a few classical lovers who aren't strong on atonal or avante garde, but your narrow and exclusive "power" recommendations contradict your assertion above, "This is the point of my articles Classical music does not belong to a select few but to every music lover who can derive pleasure from it!".  I have never hard a basic repertoire item that I "abhored" (though, like I say, I like enjoy some a lot more than others).  Were a person to take your advice, they would never be exposed to the following for example:

   BACH, Johann Sebastian: Keyboard Goldberg Variations for Harpsichord BWV 988
   BEETHOVEN, Ludwig van: String Quartet No.14 Op.131
   BOULEZ, Pierre: Pli selon pli, for soprano & orchestra
   BRAHMS, Johannes: Trio for Piano & Strings No.2 C maj Op.87
   CARTER, Elliot: String Quartets, No. 1, 2
   HAYDN, Franz Joseph: Quartet Op.76 (3 "Emperor", 4, 6)
   HILDEGARD von Bingen: Selected works
   JANÁCEK, Leos: Quartes No.1, 2
   PALESTRINA, Giovanni: Missa Papae Marcelli
   PÄRT, Arvo: Fratres, for string quartet
   SCHNITTKE, Alfred: Concerti Grossi
   SCHUBERT, Franz: Quintet for Strings D.956
   SHOSTAKOVICH, Dmitri: String Quartet No. 8 Op.110
   WEBERN, Anton: Pieces (5) for orchestra, Op.10

Actually I dare say all of us genuine classical lovers find at least a few of these pieces quite exciting, and I would be a shame if you well-intentioned but misguided advice were to discouraged music beginners from exploring these subgenre.

[Grazioso]

1) Don "Baroque" is not Power Orchestral Music and I do own and listen to some baroque music. I would never recommend it to someone who thinks all Classical music is boring.   

Which is, frankly, bizarre. More than a few people have fallen in love with Classical via The Four Seasons, the Brandenburg Concerti, and other Baroque favorites. More to the point, much Baroque instrumental music is short, fast, and hard-driving with very pronounced, easy-to-follow rhythms--in many ways, it's classical music's closest analogue to rock. It's no coincidence that most of the classical influence on heavy metal musicians comes from the Baroque era. A metal fan with a trained ear who thinks he doesn't like classical music should be able to notice the many parallels between metal and instrumental baroque music, like all those 16th-note scalar sequences and certain modes and harmonic progressions so prominent in "neo-classical", "Euro", and of course "power" metal (presumably where you draw your term "power classical" from).

5) Gurn Blanston Power Orchestral Music is thrilling, exciting Classical music with lots of drive, energy, rhythm and beat and is seasoned with colorful percussion effects.  It has an organismic quality that often sends goosebumps throughout ones body.   In short a joy ride for not only the ears but the entire body.

See above.

11) And finally to Florestan evidently the lists are not for you.  As I have always said NO ONE likes the same things and should never held in ridicule for not liking them.  And that is my beef with the Classical music establishment.  Classical can indeed be for everyone, please do not scare them away!

True, but you should probably try to steer newcomers to the best the genre has to offer and not worry that they might be scared away by something challenging or something you dislike. If I were introducing someone to the greatest American novels, I would direct them towards Moby-Dick, for example, even though it won't be to everyone's immediate taste or even comprehensible to them. But if they seriously want to explore and enjoy the genre on its own terms and not just pick and choose what's easy and immediately appealing, it's something they should grapple with--and will likely be rewarded by.

From your website:

Traditional recommended Classical music lists are filled with boring, prodding Symphonies and Concertos and lots of tedious chamber works.  I find the most enjoyable classical works are Symphonic Poems, Dances, Overtures and Ballet Music.  Although Symphonies and Concertos written in a programatic style on a colorful orchestral canvas can be quite enjoyable as well.

Yet for many who are new to classical music, these things you abhor could well be the things they enjoy the most. I know when I was growing weary of rock and was introduced to classical music, some of the things that appealed the most were the dramatic, monumental symphonies of Mahler and Bruckner and Beethoven, the unforgettable melodies of chamber works by Schubert and piano pieces by Schumann, and so forth.

With Power orchestral music the experience of classical music becomes a purely emotional one, one that transports one to another realm. This is the music that will get new converts to classical music because nothing has to be learned, it is not academic exercises in writing or playing technique.  It is music that is extremely easy to fall in love with on the very first listen, as easy to experience as Movie orchestral music.

Also there is nothing here you have to "learn" to like.  The true path to musical enlightenment and enjoyment is becoming one with the music or to put it another way becoming lost in the music.  Where the music envelopes you and you leave the physical world and are transported to the musical world created by the composer and performers.  Power orchestral music does this better for me than any other music have I ever discovered!

This is treading on dangerous ground. Classical music, whether you like it or not, is complex and sophisticated, and to be fully appreciated it requires active intellectual engagement along with one's natural emotional response. Someone who is just listening for a quick physical/emotional kick is missing much of the point. That would be like watching Hamlet just for the sword fights.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Feanor and especially Grazioso have answered Teresa quite well, in my opinion. Teresa, basically, is bored by any classical music that does not aspire to the condition of rock or film music. This notion of "Power Orchestral" music essentially entails poundingly rhythmic music that is bold, bombastic, and brassy; and eliminates any music that is introspective, subtle, lyrical, witty, delicate, or in any way more modestly scaled. Nothing wrong with some of the titles in her list (I could even add a few myself), though a number of them turn me off. Certainly this kind of music has its place. In fact, to counter Teresa, who seems to have a considerable chip on her shoulder towards music-appreciation courses, it was quite common in such courses to use a lot of music like this as a way of getting people started, as well as a representative selection of the more emotionally and intellectually demanding music that Teresa so clearly disdains. (Another point is that she appears to have no use for opera, yet few areas of classical music are seeing more popular interest these days than the operatic repertory.) My point is that to restrict one's self only to Power Orchestral Rock is to miss out on a great deal of what makes classical music a very precious experience to those who truly do love it, and I fear Teresa, with her Instant Gratification approach and refusal to go beyond it, has taken a very limited corner of the musical universe and made it her whole.

[Ephemerid]

That would be like watching Hamlet just for the sword fights.

Perfect.