A different cut on beginners' classical music

[Florestan]

Ultimately, anyone going into classical music hoping to find rock played with violins is missing the point entirely.

Amen!

[Teresa]

I think most people who love rock enjoy the beat more than the percussion in and of itself, and either way, most rock fans seem to focus more on the melodies and lyrics than any subtleties of drumming--let alone harmony or form, which tend to be extremely cliched and simple. (With jazz, harmony and rhythm tend to be much more sophisticated, while form tends again to be simple and generic.)

While chamber music in particular, and classical music in general, usually lacks (extensive) percussion, it does usually have very clear rhythms to which you can tap you toes just as easily as if a bass drum were thumping time. If someone can't hear/feel the rhythm of a Vivaldi violin concerto or a Mahler march tune, then they need to develop their ear

I came to classical from rock (to which I still listen) and love jazz. The absence of a drum kit in chamber music has been no hindrance to me at all. And I tend to agree with Lethe's original supposition that the clarity of texture in most chamber music makes it perhaps easier for a rock fan to enjoy, but then again, outside of musicians, not many rock listeners in my experience pay any attention to details, which are so important in classical music: which one of them can hum the bass line back to you after listening to a song, or tell you the time signature or how many different chords are used in the chorus?

Could depend on the type of Rock music one is coming from?  The Rock music I love stresses music over lyrics and often the music is quite complex and some works totally instrumental.  Groups such as Emerson, Lake and Palmer, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Moody Blues and other progressive and art-rock groups, all use instruments normally heard in classical and orchestral music, and some even use arrangement of classical compositions. 

Someone coming from Pop would better fit your description, perhaps it is those who would like chamber music?  All I know is I am not one who likes chamber music in the least little bit except for a few works that feature percussion, however I still prefer orchestral music.  Also I prefer orchestral music that includes winds, brass and percussion.  To me no matter what type of music percussion is key, to me it is like the seasoning I put on my favorite foods. 

Ultimately, anyone going into classical music hoping to find rock played with violins is missing the point entirely. 

I agree completely however many Classical music compositions, especially of the orchestral variety, offer plenty of percussion, the main difference is rhythm is stressed over beat.   The percussive-heavy classical compositions were my gateway into the world of classical music from Progressive-Art Rock.

[Teresa]

But the drummer in a Jazz quartet is one of the four players, with a specific role in that style of music. If you add a drummer to a string quartet, you no longer have a quartet --  unless you want to replace one of the string players with the drummer. Then you'll have yourself a quartet, but not a string quartet.

In the case of the Kronos Quartet, it is String Quartet plus percussion and sometimes plus many other instruments.  In short there are some String Quartet plus compositions I like but no String Quartet alone compositions I like. 

[Szykneij]

Could depend on the type of Rock music one is coming from?  The Rock music I love stresses music over lyrics and often the music is quite complex and some works totally instrumental.  Groups such as Emerson, Lake and Palmer, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Moody Blues and other progressive and art-rock groups, all use instruments normally heard in classical and orchestral music, and some even use arrangement of classical compositions. 

These are bands that I enjoy listening to also, and I'd include "Yes" in their category. I would argue the point that they stress music over lyrics, though, especially in the case of the "Moody Blues" whose music usually has well-written and profound lyrics and messages. And If I was forced to view these groups as symphonic or chamber, I'd have to place Jethro Tull in the latter category based on the frequent use of acoustic guitar and flute in very chamber-like settings.

To me no matter what type of music percussion is key, to me it is like the seasoning I put on my favorite foods. 

Everyone has their own tastes, and should enjoy what they enjoy. There are people who like ketchup on filet mignon, and if that's how they want to eat it, more power to them. But are they really appreciating the quality of the meal?

[Grazioso]

Could depend on the type of Rock music one is coming from?  The Rock music I love stresses music over lyrics and often the music is quite complex and some works totally instrumental.  Groups such as Emerson, Lake and Palmer, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Moody Blues and other progressive and art-rock groups, all use instruments normally heard in classical and orchestral music, and some even use arrangement of classical compositions. 

In my listening experience, most art/prog rock (and metal, which tends to be the other relatively sophisticated rock genre) is ultimately much closer to other types of rock than classical music in terms of overall feel, instrumentation, form, and complexity.

Part of the reason you may not like chamber music is that it rests fundamentally on the idea of music as intelligent conversation between equal partners, and that's something very rare in rock music, where the voice takes primacy, and after that the lead guitar, with other instruments generally (but I know not always) relegated to background support or embellishment. Similarly, like classical music in general, chamber music typically focuses on the elaboration of thematic material and harmonic contrasts, whereas rock music tends to rely on simple strophic forms, literally repeated material with perhaps a couple little ornaments, and simple modulations, if any. In these regards, classical music and actually shares much more with jazz than with rock.

I understand that you love percussion--nothing wrong with that!--but using that as a prerequisite for what you explore and enjoy in classical music is to approach the entire genre on woefully narrow terms that will result in you missing much great music--and much of what classical music is all about. That's like an American traveling to Paris and only eating at McDonalds, an opportunity wasted.

[Florestan]

In my listening experience, most art/prog rock (and metal, which tends to be the other relatively sophisticated rock genre) is ultimately much closer to other types of rock than classical music in terms of overall feel, instrumentation, form, and complexity.

Part of the reason you may not like chamber music is that it rests fundamentally on the idea of music as intelligent conversation between equal partners, and that's something very rare in rock music, where the voice takes primacy, and after that the lead guitar, with other instruments generally (but I know not always) relegated to background support or embellishment. Similarly, like classical music in general, chamber music typically focuses on the elaboration of thematic material and harmonic contrasts, whereas rock music tends to rely on simple strophic forms, literally repeated material with perhaps a couple little ornaments, and simple modulations, if any. In these regards, classical music and actually shares much more with jazz than with rock.

I understand that you love percussion--nothing wrong with that!--but using that as a prerequisite for what you explore and enjoy in classical music is to approach the entire genre on woefully narrow terms that will result in you missing much great music--and much of what classical music is all about.

Word.

That's like an American traveling to Paris and only eating at McDonalds, an opportunity wasted.

I've met some, not in Paris but in Venice.

And an American girl in Florence complained about not having TV in her hotel room.

[Teresa]

In my listening experience, most art/prog rock (and metal, which tends to be the other relatively sophisticated rock genre) is ultimately much closer to other types of rock than classical music in terms of overall feel, instrumentation, form, and complexity.

Part of the reason you may not like chamber music is that it rests fundamentally on the idea of music as intelligent conversation between equal partners, and that's something very rare in rock music, where the voice takes primacy, and after that the lead guitar, with other instruments generally (but I know not always) relegated to background support or embellishment. Similarly, like classical music in general, chamber music typically focuses on the elaboration of thematic material and harmonic contrasts, whereas rock music tends to rely on simple strophic forms, literally repeated material with perhaps a couple little ornaments, and simple modulations, if any. In these regards, classical music and actually shares much more with jazz than with rock.

I understand that you love percussion--nothing wrong with that!--but using that as a prerequisite for what you explore and enjoy in classical music is to approach the entire genre on woefully narrow terms that will result in you missing much great music--and much of what classical music is all about. That's like an American traveling to Paris and only eating at McDonalds, an opportunity wasted.

I disagree as I hate Metal and electric guitar heavy music.  That is what attracted me to Art Rock to begin with is the broader range of musical instruments and the diminished role of the electric guitar and in some cases it's disappearance altogether.   

I prefer that all music have percussion not just Rock and Classical.  For example I do not like solo piano and piano and bass Jazz music.  I prefer at least a Jazz Quartet or larger- Piano, Bass, Drums and a wind instrument.  My favorite Jazz groups are Big Bands. 

With Progressive/Art Rock such as ELP and others, I don't much care for electric guitar but tolerate it if it is not in the forefront, though I do like acoustic guitar.  The only electric instruments I have enjoyed in Rock is Electric Bass and Synthesizer.  I prefer an "orchestral sound" to my rock music whither accomplished with a real symphony orchestra, or the band members playing a variety of orchestral and even "eastern" instruments or the orchestral sound created by a synthesizer.  I had no idea that Art Rock was imitating a symphony orchestra until I actually discovered Classical music for myself. 

I am exposed to non-percussion music of all kinds on Samplers, etc. but I never keep them as percussion is my main ingredient in music of all kinds. 

If I happen to go to France I will not eat snails and pattee!    I don't like McDonald's either, perhaps I will pick up something editable from the grocery store or not go to France at all!

[Florestan]

If I happen to go to France   listen to Classical music I will not eat snails and pattee!   listen to string quartets  I don't like McDonald's non-percussion music either, perhaps I will pick up something editable from the grocery store   listenable from my list or not go to France listen to Classical music at all!

Fixed.

[Teresa]

Fixed.

Love your reply, LOL!   

BTW so far I have managed to find 1,612 classical compositions by 291 composers, so there is no shortage of classical music that is literally seasoned with percussion.  Plus there are thousands of compositions I have yet to discover! 

Most of my collection is orchestral, but I do have works for smaller groups including chamber ensembles with percussion.  I also have Ionisation by Edgard Varèse written for thirteen percussionists. 

The classical works I enjoy the most are symphonic poems, dances, overtures, ballet music, orchestral suites and instrumental excepts from operas. Although symphonies and concertos written in a programatic style on a colorful orchestral canvas with plenty of percussive accents can be quite enjoyable as well.

Clearly not everyone needs or even wants percussion in their music, however I do!

[Teresa]

These are bands that I enjoy listening to also, and I'd include "Yes" in their category. I would argue the point that they stress music over lyrics, though, especially in the case of the "Moody Blues" whose music usually has well-written and profound lyrics and messages. And If I was forced to view these groups as symphonic or chamber, I'd have to place Jethro Tull in the latter category based on the frequent use of acoustic guitar and flute in very chamber-like settings.

I agree with most of this, poetry is also important to the Moody Blues, but the music is quite complex and profound and really supports the lyrics well.  Ian Anderson is quite a wild flute player, however percussion is quite a large part of the Jethro Tull sound.

UPDATE 1/12/10: The problem I have with the group YES is I don't like the sound of Jon Anderson's singing voice.  I like the original acoustic version of Roundabout with the guitar harmonics at the beginning for the LP Fragile but I don't care for the rest of the LP.  For me Yes has too much electric guitar for my tastse.

Everyone has their own tastes, and should enjoy what they enjoy. There are people who like ketchup on filet mignon, and if that's how they want to eat it, more power to them. But are they really appreciating the quality of the meal?

While I would never put ketchup on a filet mignon, spices such as salt, pepper and garlic really bring out the flavor.  That is why I compare spices to percussion as percussion really brings out the flavor of the music for me.

[Florestan]

Clearly not everyone needs or even wants percussion in their music, however I do!

Nothing wrong with that. Try listening to Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture in the original version, the one with cannon shots. That's as percussive as it gets!

[jochanaan]

I agree with most of this, poetry is also important to the Moody Blues, but the music is quite complex and profound and really supports the lyrics well.  Ian Anderson is quite a wild flute player, however percussion is quite a large part of the Jethro Tull sound.

Quick off-topic comment: While Ian Anderson is indeed a fine player, I feel he relies a little too much on the voice-while-fluting technique.  I'd like to see him also use some other alternative techniques such as multiphonics and key hits.

Okay, back on topic.

While I would never put ketchup on a filet mignon, spices such as salt, pepper and garlic really bring out the flavor.  That is why I compare spices to percussion as percussion really brings out the flavor of the music for me.

So now I know which instruments you probably play.

Seriously, I love percussion.  One of my favorite things to do is to sit in on a drum jam with my flute, although I have to limit my playing mostly to the top octave so it'll be heard. But sometimes I just like to revel in other tones: a quick ascending flute run, a long-held oboe tone, a distant horn call, a violin cadenza... Some foods are just better without spices, and some music is just better without drums.

[Franco]

For a fantastic chamber work that uses percussion in a very effective manner, I'd suggest Bartok's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion.

[RJR]

Although I totally disagree with Teresa's opinions, I could see early on in this thread that nothing any of us might say to defend the status quo would make the slightest difference to her views.  No-one has said anything of substance that hasn't already been said by the critic whose views are set out in her website, and she rubbished that.  These reactions, however, needed saying and many of them are very eloquent.

To me, Teresa's arguments lead to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Her rejection of  absolute music, opera, and most chamber music has produced a highly skewed suggested list of classical music which most of us would say is a gross caricature of "classical music", it being little more than a curious mix of largely second rate rock-inspired, jazzed-up, pop-culture with the odd genuine article thrown just to give it a semblance of authenticity. 

I have known many people who dislike classical music, in fact the vast majority of my friends, relations, neighbours, work colleagues.  Whenever I've tried to discuss the reasons for this I've invariably found a major reluctance among these people to enter into any kind of serious discussion.  Mostly, people decline to say any more than the minimum they can get away with.  The best I've had by way of explanation is that too much of classical music is too complex and generally has a saddening effect on them, whereas they're looking for something more uplifting and light and the best way of achieving that is by pop culture type of music, so their attitude is why complicate things by introducing a pseudo-classical dimension.  Occasionally, someone might show a bit of interest, and out of courtesy might listen to some recommendations, but on the whole I don't kid myself that my efforts achieve anything lasting in the majority of cases.  I'm happy to accept the fact that classical music is a very small minority interest, always has been and probably always will be. 

Nor could I see that we would ever get an answer to the underlying question concerning what actual evidence she has that her list of suggested works is any more likely to stimulate interest in classical music among the 97% (or whatever) of the population who say they have no interest in this genre.  I think I asked this question previously but I have not seen any attempted answer.  I know why.  I don't think Teresa has any evidence at all that this so-called "power orchestral" stuff (Ugh!)  - with emphasis on percussive instruments - is the magic ingredient that will turn on the classical music sceptic.  It's merely what she likes, and the rest is pure wishful thinking.  I think that all we have in Teresa's "classical music" list, and her other musings and responses here, is nothing more than an expression of her own musical prejudices.  I can't see why she thinks it is more likely than a more conventional list to be of value to a professed classical music sceptic. 

So I remain completely unconvinced that Teresa has presented any evidence that her views on classical music for the sceptic either (i) actually have any wider applicability, or (ii) may have wider applicability if she can get the message over to a wide public, or (iii) should have wider applicability given their intrinsic merits.

Right on!

[westknife]

links don't work anymore

[Szykneij]

links don't work anymore

That's because this thread was started over 3 1/2 years ago and Teresa and Topaz are long gone from the site.

[Fëanor]

links don't work anymore

Here are new links, folks ...

Teresa's The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music ...
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue35/classical_music.htm

Teresa's Classical Music for Everyone ...
http://vinylfanatics.com/analoglovers/page20.html

[westknife]

Welp, that was about as inane as I expected, given the reaction here.

[Daverz]

Here are new links, folks ...

Teresa's The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music ...
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue35/classical_music.htm

Teresa's Classical Music for Everyone ...
http://vinylfanatics.com/analoglovers/page20.html

Looking at this now, it's a nicely eclectic selection of light classical music.  It's not ideal as a list for beginners since even they might want some meatier fare in the mix.  In fact, it's the more challenging music that attracts many people to classical music in the first place. 

[Palmetto]

Well, I found the overall tone of the writing demonstrated the same snobbishness the author claims is possessed by "stuffed shirt academics", just of a different variety.

That said, I'll probably try some of these pieces.  Her list includes three composers whose works I have enjoyed lately (Bernstein, Copland, Gershwin).  Maybe her tastes and mine are similar in some areas; that won't prevent me from enjoying those genres she doesn't.

I'm going to ignore the condescending fish wrapping and concentrate instead on the fish and chips therein.