A different cut on beginners' classical music

[Teresa]

It is also arrogant to assume that just because a work is exciting, likable and enjoyable to you, it deserves to be on equal terms with real art.

Who the hell are you to define art.  BTW I want music that tastes good not that has good taste.  There is a big gigantic difference between these two polarities.  I'm beginning to believe you are an elitist of the worst sort that does not want regular people listening to your prized Classical music.  Well we are here and you cannot scare us away, but we only want the stuff we like not the stuff we are supposed to like. 

In the beginning I tried to follow the establishments dictates on what is must have Classical music, after 26 years I now totally reject that.  There are NO classical works that are must haves as we all like different things and that is what you do not understand.  This is the reason that the works on my list are "suggestions".  Would you rather have listeners not explore these and never become a Classical music listener?  I don't understand your complaint.

[Robert Dahm]

We aren't being elitists. The tone seems a little miffed because you so militantly refuse accept that there might be 'good' music other than that which you like. Yes the internet allows streaming and yes everybody has different tastes, but, let's say for a moment that someone that didn't like classical music were to read your articles: immediately they would come away with the idea that 90% of the repertoire absent from your list is 'boring and academic'. Far from being elitist, and far from trying to force our own musical tastes (which, if you care to scan some other threads on this forum, diverge wildly and often violently) down anybody's throats, we are trying to remain inclusive of great music.

While some of the things on your list are undeniably in the category of 'great art', many are not. Thus, your wanton declaration that this is 'the good stuff' is more than slightly worrying.

But perhaps we are misunderstanding your fundamental aim with this list. We all thought that your aim was to increase potential listenership for 'classical' music by providing people an entry-point to the repertoire. A kind of leg-up for beginners in developing a rewarding library of 'classical' music that can form the basis of further exploration. But I'm thinking increaasingly that what you were aiming for is to make a list of pieces that might make a sensible addition to one's rock/pop library, with no further interest/development/exploration required. In which case, might I humbly suggest a small alteration, in the interest of clarity, of the title list to The Basic Power Orchestral Repertoire, or Classical music for folks who don't like Classical music (and never want to learn, for damned sure). But in this case, what's the point of giving the listener you're talking about 'classical' music at all? Wouldn't they just prefer to stick to what they know? Surely everybody else can have similar Teresa-esque revelations of their own?

On a slightly broader issue, it's worth noting that creating a new 'classical listener' is no kind of end in itself. If somebody picks up, say, The Ride of the Valkyries and loves it, then good for them. But, ultimately, who cares? 'Classical music' is not just a recording industry, or a dusty, calcified historical type of sound. 'Classical music' is a tradition spanning some nine centuries through which dozens of cultures have articulated themselves, and (perhaps just as importantly) continue to articulate themselves. Being a 'classical listener' is about more than just ticking a box on an HMV marketing survey, it's about an engagement with history, culture and the human experience. In my opinion, contributing to a culture that engenders this kind of listener IS something that's worth making a list for.

[Teresa]

We aren't being elitists. The tone seems a little miffed because you so militantly refuse accept that there might be 'good' music other than that which you like. 

On the contrary I have said at least five times in this thread that "not everyone likes the same things" and I will not be dictated to in what I must listen to as a Classical music listener.  I and everyone should only listen to what they like.  My list is for people who have tried the traditional lists and don't like the music on them, my list is an alternative to the traditional recommended lists.  And unlike the elitists I recommend nothing only suggest and I leave the final decision up to the listener.

So yes there is good music I do not like, I have never ever said different!!!!!

[eyeresist]

I think Teresa has been rather unfairly jumped upon here. She is suggesting music for people who for whatever reason don't have the mindset to sit through Milhaud or whoever. That's not exactly going to lay waste to Western culture, now, is it? My only quibble would be with her assertion that casual listeners would prefer programmatic music - programmatic music often seems, to me, weakened by its reliance on extra-musical materials.

[Iconito]

I have since realised a use for the list

I have realised a use for the list, too. But one would have to print it first (if at all possible on a very, very soft paper....)

I only included Brahms Hungarian Dances as that is the only work of his I really love.  I do like the Violin Concerto a little, not enough to actually keep, the Piano Concertos are OK but nothing to get excited about, I prefer the Piano Concertos of Liszt and Rachmaninov.  I abhor all 4 of Brahms Symphonies and his chamber works. 

Teresa, you must be astonishingly beautiful.  Am I right?

* * *

OK. Now that I got the silly jokes out of my chest, I'd like to add a couple of things in a more serious note...

... But I've just seen Robert Dahm great post above which says everything I wanted to say much better than I would have said it (the bright side is that you saved me a lot of typing. Thanks, Robert! )

Only one more thing, then: I think... OMG! Now it's eyeresist's "I think Teresa has been rather unfairly jumped upon here"!!! OK... Is anybody going to say "Welcome to the forum, Teresa" before I hit the post button? Hmm?

Welcome to the forum, Teresa!

[Florestan]

I want music that tastes good not that has good taste...

...and that keeps your body juices flowing! We know that all right. Things are now crystal clear: what you want is not to have a true appreciation of classical music but an appendix with some kind of respectability to your rock / pop collection, so that you can say: "Hey, don't trash rock for screaming like hell or titillating you, even Beethoven and Ravel did that!". So, please, don't say "I love classical music" anymore, because you don't. What you love is your own idea of what classical music should be and sound.

My hat off and a warm welcome to you, Mr. Robert Dahm!

[Teresa]

...and that keeps your body juices flowing! We know that all right. Things are now crystal clear: what you want is not to have a true appreciation of classical music but an appendix with some kind of respectability to your rock / pop collection, so that you can say: "Hey, don't trash rock for screaming like hell or titillating you, even Beethoven and Ravel did that!". So, please, don't say "I love classical music" anymore, because you don't. What you love is your own idea of what classical music should be and sound.

Well excuse me for wanting to actually enjoy the music I listen to.  I own more Classical music than all other forms combined, so go pick on someone else.  I do appreciation the Classical music I love very much, do you?  And I will go on loving Classical music and you cannot stop me!!!!!!!!

[Harry]

Oh, why not do it publicly, Harry? If Teresa can let it all hang out on the board, why not you too?

I am game my friend if Teresa is.

[Florestan]

Well excuse me for wanting to actually enjoy the music I listen to.

That's very nice. I enjoy my Brahms and Schubert a lot. But if "enjoying classical music" boils down for you to "keeping the body juices flowing", "tasting good" and "having orgasms" then you're completely missing the point.

[Teresa]

That's very nice. I enjoy my Brahms and Schubert a lot. But if "enjoying classical music" boils down for you to "keeping the body juices flowing", "tasting good" and "having orgasms" then you're completely missing the point.

The point being?  If you enjoy Brahms and Schubert that is fine with me and I'm sure everyone here.  Wake up not everyone has to love the music you love once you realize that you will grow as a human being.  I only demand one thing of the music I listen to and that is that I like it.  That is not an awful lot to ask!

[Harry]

Well excuse me for wanting to actually enjoy the music I listen to.  I own more Classical music than all other forms combined, so go pick on someone else.  I do appreciation the Classical music I love very much, do you?  And I will go on loving Classical music and you cannot stop me!!!!!!!!

Teresa, we are only teasing you. We always behave with extreme politeness to women with spirit. Let the guys do what they are best at, and show them how well balanced a woman can be, as I fully expect you to be, reading your eloquent writing and your passion in expression.
I for one send you a polite invitation to deepen our friendship on PM basis, but so far you declined it, and never answered it, which is sad actually, but being a big boy, I can stomach that.
What I wanted to say to you, that you are very welcome to GMG, and I hope you will stay, because in essence most of us are friendly people.

[Harry]

The point being?  Wake up not everyone has to love the music you love once you realize that you will grow as a human being.  I only demand one thing of the music I listen to and that is that I like it.  That is not an awful lot to ask!

Hold your horses Teresa, we do not demand, nor dictate, nor making lists of what one should listen, no, everyone should do as he or she likes. You ask not too much, and it will be given.

[Harry]

On the contrary I have said at least five times in this thread that "not everyone likes the same things" and I will not be dictated to in what I must listen to as a Classical music listener.  I and everyone should only listen to what they like.  My list is for people who have tried the traditional lists and don't like the music on them, my list is an alternative to the traditional recommended lists.  And unlike the elitists I recommend nothing only suggest and I leave the final decision up to the listener.

So yes there is good music I do not like, I have never ever said different!!!!!

And I for one see your point, Teresa.

[Florestan]

I only demand one thing of the music I listen to and that is that I like it. 

I have nothing against you disliking Schubert or Brahms or whoever. But I have everything against you ranting about them being "dull" or "boring". What credentials do you have to make such statements? Have you listened to their music extensively, studied the scores, compared performances and spent hours trying to figure it out?

Speaking of which, just how do you know that such or such music "tastes good"? Do you lick the scores or the CDs?  

[Harry]

I have nothing against you disliking Schubert or Brahms or whoever. But I have everything against you ranting about them being "dull" or "boring". What credentials do you have to make such statements? Have you listened to their music extensively, studied the scores, compared performances and spent hours trying to figure it out?

Speaking of which, just how do you know that such or such music "tastes good"? Do you lick the scores or the CDs?  

I think Andrei that Teresa is strictly speaking for her self, what she likes and dislikes, and tells everyone. Her approach is purely emotional and bodily. And a dash of passion behind it. Allthough I disagree with her, this passion is very much to my liking.

[Topaz]

That's very nice. I enjoy my Brahms and Schubert a lot. But if "enjoying classical music" boils down for you to "keeping the body juices flowing", "tasting good" and "having orgasms" then you're completely missing the point.

I couldn't agree more with the above comment.

Let me ask Teresa how many converts she has had, i.e. how many people she is aware of who profess not to like classical music but who have changed their mind after sampling the kind of material she likes.

As for (LIEUTENANT-COLONEL) Harry's abysmally failing amorous advances, it made me wonder whether Teresa might get a more a sympathetic hearing for her opinions from the well-known, broad-minded classical music proprietor of the MAYHEM site.  That should be good for a few laughs.  I'll keep tuned in specially to watch developments.  Go on, Teresa, I dare you, give it a try.  You'll meet some other interesting folk too.

[Harry]

I couldn't agree more with the above comment.

Let me ask Teresa how many converts she has had, i.e. how many people she is aware of who profess not to like classical music but who have changed their mind after sampling the kind of material she likes.

As for (LIEUTENANT-COLONEL) Harry's abysmally failing amorous advances, it made me wonder whether Teresa might get a more a sympathetic hearing for her opinions from the well-known, broad-minded classical music proprietor of the MAYHEM site.  That should be good for a few laughs.  I'll keep tuned in specially to watch developments.  Go on, Teresa, I dare you, give it a try.  You'll meet some other interesting folk too.

Topaz, my friend, you are completely missing the points of my postings, and you should try to read behind the words, and not read over them.

[Harry]

As for (LIEUTENANT-COLONEL) Harry's abysmally failing amorous advances, it made me wonder whether Teresa might get a more a sympathetic hearing for her opinions from the well-known, broad-minded classical music proprietor of the MAYHEM site.  That should be good for a few laughs.  I'll keep tuned in specially to watch developments.  Go on, Teresa, I dare you, give it a try.  You'll meet some other interesting folk too.

You make me laugh out loud Private Topaz.!

[Teresa]

I have nothing against you disliking Schubert or Brahms or whoever. But I have everything against you ranting about them being "dull" or "boring". What credentials do you have to make such statements? Have you listened to their music extensively, studied the scores, compared performances and spent hours trying to figure it out?

Speaking of which, just how do you know that such or such music "tastes good"? Do you lick the scores or the CDs?  

What is boring to me may be beautiful and soulful to someone else. And that is why I say music is a very personal thing.  Dull and boring are "personal" feelings and no credentials are needed by anyone, not me and not you!  It would not bother me if you think the music I like is boring.  So where is the problem?

I have a solution to music I find boring, I take it off sell it and play something I like.  After all I listen to music for the enjoyment of music. 

I am referring to "good taste" as in what is considered "The Greats" in Classical music by the Classical establishment.  Instead I want what "tastes good" to my ears, my heart and my soul and only my ears, my heart and my soul.  I don't follow reviewers or any authority on what I must have, I buy and play what I like.  It's really that simple.  And that is another reason I go to great pains to emphasize my list is "suggestions" not "must haves" as other lists do.  I believe listeners can choose what they like if they can find it, I am only helping them to find it.

[Harry]

I couldn't agree more with the above comment.

Let me ask Teresa how many converts she has had, i.e. how many people she is aware of who profess not to like classical music but who have changed their mind after sampling the kind of material she likes.

As for (LIEUTENANT-COLONEL) Harry's abysmally failing amorous advances, it made me wonder whether Teresa might get a more a sympathetic hearing for her opinions from the well-known, broad-minded classical music proprietor of the MAYHEM site.  That should be good for a few laughs.  I'll keep tuned in specially to watch developments.  Go on, Teresa, I dare you, give it a try.  You'll meet some other interesting folk too.

And for you its Lieutenant-Colonel, SIR.