La forza del destino

[knight66]

I like that RCA recording, but even better, I think, is Lamberto Gardelli's EMI version with Arroyo, Bergonzi, Cappuccilli, Raimond, as Padre Guardiano, and Geraint Evans.

Hector, It was mentioned, but good to see it getting another plug. Gardelli was an excellent Verdi conductor. I have never hared much by Arroyo, is she good, is the voice disctinctive? She seemed to be in the public eye for quite a short time.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

As for 'La Forza' nobody has mentioned the first complete set under Gardelli with Bergonzi, Arroyo, Cappuccilli, Geraint Evans and Raimondi on EMI recorded in London with an on-form RPO.

Tsaraslondon did actually, even showed a pic, but he got the conductor wrong.

I'm with Knight. I like Siinopoli's Forza. I don't own it yet but a friend does and I've heard it several times. JPC has it at an excellent price, 23 Euro. It's in my shopping cart now, just waiting for the end of the month and fresh funds.

What I do have currently is Muti/Freni/Domingo/Plishka (Guardiano) and Molinari-Pradelli/Tebaldi/del Monaco/Siepi. Neither M-P nor del Monaco are subtle but this is a pretty thrilling ride if you leave your brain at home. Tebaldi...sigh, just exquisite.

The Muti recording...I've never been happy with it: too fast (I really appreciate the way Sinopoli takes his time) and the cast is nothing to write home about...save Domingo. He's exceptional here.

Sarge

[Hector]

Hector, It was mentioned, but good to see it getting another plug. Gardelli was an excellent Verdi conductor. I have never hared much by Arroyo, is she good, is the voice disctinctive? She seemed to be in the public eye for quite a short time.

Mike

She takes a time to warm up but demonstrates that she has a powerful Verdi voice. Love her.

Gardelli was the perfect opera conductor in that he led but did not impose. His subtle conducting of the early Verdi operas he recorded for Philips are a consistent joy.

I, actually, went along with a friend, and employee of EMI, to buy the 4LP set at the staff shop on the EMI complex in Hayes many years ago  at 25% discount! 

[Tsaraslondon]

Tsaraslondon did actually, even showed a pic, but he got the conductor wrong..

Sarge

Sorry. Must have been thinking of the Muti Un Ballo in Maschera, which also has Martina Arroyo in it.

Surprised nobody else seems to like the Callas recording.

And surprised there are so many votes for the Sinopoli. To my ears, he does exactly the opposite of Gardelli (ie imposes himself all over the music), Carreras sounds tired and well past his best, Plowright is out of sorts and no match for her excellent Leonora on the Giulini il Trovatore, Bruson is a dull Carlo and Burchaladze lacks the authority for Padre Guardiano. Baltsa is the only saving grace, but nobody buys a recording of Forza on the strength of its Preziosilla.

I'd say any of the other recordings mentioned so far were a better bet.

[Hector]

Sorry. Must have been thinking of the Muti Un Ballo in Maschera, which also has Martina Arroyo in it.

Surprised nobody else seems to like the Callas recording.

And surprised there are so many votes for the Sinopoli. To my ears, he does exactly the opposite of Gardelli (ie imposes himself all over the music), Carreras sounds tired and well past his best, Plowright is out of sorts and no match for her excellent Leonora on the Giulini il Trovatore, Bruson is a dull Carlo and Burchaladze lacks the authority for Padre Guardiano. Baltsa is the only saving grace, but nobody buys a recording of Forza on the strength of its Preziosilla.

I'd say any of the other recordings mentioned so far were a better bet.

Spot on.

Arguably, the weakness of the Gardelli is the Preziosilla!

[Sergeant Rock]

And surprised there are so many votes for the Sinopoli. To my ears, he does exactly the opposite of Gardelli (ie imposes himself all over the music)

Which is the very reason I like Sinopoli. What I want is a conductor who has something individual to say about the music and participates interpretively as much as his singers. Finding the best version of an opera is much more than choosing who sings best (although I have no serious complaints about this cast). It's a whole experience which includes the orchestra and the conductor too. For my taste Sinopoli is one of the great conductors of Verdi.

Sarge

[knight66]

Sarge, I think it depends on the piece. I thought his Macbeth was too full of gear changes, but his Salome was exactly right. It depended sometimes how much he wanted to maul things about. But we are at one over Forza.

Mike

[Tsaraslondon]

Which is the very reason I like Sinopoli. What I want is a conductor who has something individual to say about the music and participates interpretively as much as his singers. Finding the best version of an opera is much more than choosing who sings best (although I have no serious complaints about this cast). It's a whole experience which includes the orchestra and the conductor too. For my taste Sinopoli is one of the great conductors of Verdi.

Sarge

Well I don't like mere accompanists - and Gardelli is certainly not just an accompanist. And I think that the  great Italian conductors of opera do have something to say - amongst them Giulini, De Sabata, Serafin and Muti. But they do seem to let the music flow in a much more natural way.

I remember going to a performance of the Verdi Requiem conducted by Sinopoli. It was an extremely interesting experience. I heard things in the orchestration and the work that I had never really heard before, but I was totally unmoved by the performance. On the other hand, I once heard Gardelli conduct it (deputising for an indisposed Giulini) and the performance was absolutely thrilling and incredibly moving. Oddly enough I can't remember who the singers were on either occasion. Now I am not saying I didn't find Sinopoli's reading interesting, but it was a cerebral rather than an emotional experience. It was as if he had dissected the score to show us it's workings, but in so doing, had taken the heart out of it. I often feel the same way about Boulez as a conductor.

[Hector]

Sarge, I think it depends on the piece. I thought his Macbeth was too full of gear changes, but his Salome was exactly right. It depended sometimes how much he wanted to maul things about. But we are at one over Forza.

Mike

Perhaps that was the problem with a Sinopoli conducted performance and recording.

I prefer him in opera and his 'Salome' is a highpoint but he would maul the Elgar symphonies and wondered why he got such corruscatingly bad reviews from the British press to the extent that he said that if he got them again he would never conduct them. Wise man.

I still think that Gardelli and Muti are better than him in Forza and it might be that the casts are better and more inspirational, if you get my drift.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I prefer him in opera and his 'Salome' is a highpoint but he would maul the Elgar symphonies and wondered why he got such corruscatingly bad reviews from the British press to the extent that he said that if he got them again he would never conduct them. Wise man.

I rather like Sinopoli's recording of Elgar's 2nd. Slow, bloated, pompous and stuffy, full of Victorian swagger and some leaden tempi, it is everything how an Elgar symphony should be. Also like his Enigma Variations.

[Michel]

I went for the Christoff on the weird label...watch this space. Although I don't quite know what I am going to compared it to...

[knight66]

I rather like Sinopoli's recording of Elgar's 2nd. Slow, bloated, pompous and stuffy, full of Victorian swagger and some leaden tempi, it is everything how an Elgar symphony should be. Also like his Enigma Variations.

Oh, do give over with the stereotypical off-hand opinions.

Mike

[Hector]

I rather like Sinopoli's recording of Elgar's 2nd. Slow, bloated, pompous and stuffy, full of Victorian swagger and some leaden tempi, it is everything how an Elgar symphony should be. Also like his Enigma Variations.

No, it is exactly how YOU would want an Elgar symphony to be.

Ideal for those that hate Elgar.

The irony, that seems to have escaped you completely, is that Sinopoli loved these works. Loved them to death, in fact!

[PerfectWagnerite]

No, it is exactly how YOU would want an Elgar symphony to be.

Ideal for those that hate Elgar.

The irony, that seems to have escaped you completely, is that Sinopoli loved these works. Loved them to death, in fact!

Oh I am sure he loved them all right. He loved them so much he milked #2 to 65 minutes, or about as long as Bruckner's 7th. I have all of Sinopoli's Elgar recordings because nobody does Elgar like him.

[Sergeant Rock]

...but he would maul the Elgar symphonies and wondered why he got such corruscatingly bad reviews from the British press to the extent that he said that if he got them again he would never conduct them. Wise man.

DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS GROSS GENERALIZATION

English critics are very possessive of their Elgar. Unless a foreign conductor or soloist slavishly imitates a beloved Englishman, preferably Elgar himself, they are going to be drawn and quartered by the press. Hilary Hahns's Elgar is just the latest example of the English damning a truly great performance simply because it isn't Menhuin or Kennedy. Another infamous example: Bernstein's Nimrod.

In each case they brought something wonderfully new to Elgar's music, making us hear it as if for the first time. You'd think the English would appreciate the "foreign" interest in their sacred music instead of reacting like jealous Guardians of the Tradition.

Not surprisingly, Sinopoli's is my favorite version of the Second (I also own Solti, Haitink, Boult and Tate). It's an absolutely searing account and proves, to me anyway, that it's one of the twentieth century's greatest symphonies, one that should be heard everywhere. It's a grand Romantic symphony, Hector: it can take a good mauling, and is all the better for it

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge, I think it depends on the piece. I thought his Macbeth was too full of gear changes, but his Salome was exactly right. It depended sometimes how much he wanted to maul things about. But we are at one over Forza.

Mike

There's constant debate in our house over which Mabeth to play: Mrs. Rock loves Abbado; I'm a Sinopoli man. I refuse to concede her taste is better than mine

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Well I don't like mere accompanists - and Gardelli is certainly not just an accompanist. And I think that the  great Italian conductors of opera do have something to say - amongst them Giulini, De Sabata, Serafin and Muti. But they do seem to let the music flow in a much more natural way.

I remember going to a performance of the Verdi Requiem conducted by Sinopoli. It was an extremely interesting experience. I heard things in the orchestration and the work that I had never really heard before, but I was totally unmoved by the performance. On the other hand, I once heard Gardelli conduct it (deputising for an indisposed Giulini) and the performance was absolutely thrilling and incredibly moving. Oddly enough I can't remember who the singers were on either occasion. Now I am not saying I didn't find Sinopoli's reading interesting, but it was a cerebral rather than an emotional experience. It was as if he had dissected the score to show us it's workings, but in so doing, had taken the heart out of it. I often feel the same way about Boulez as a conductor.

I understand your point and I can't dispute it. It's one of the most difficult things to comprehend and impossible to explain: why one person is moved by a performance that leaves another shrugging his shoulders and scratching his head, wondering what all the commotion was about. Your description of a typical Sinopoli performance is spot on...it's what I often here. But very often that works for me (I'm a musical layman; I judge music first and foremost by the emotional impact it has on me). Sometimes it doesn't. I've never warmed to Sinopoli's Mahler, for example, but love his Strauss, Puccini, and Verdi...or rather, I have a very strong, positive emotional reaction to it that I love.

Sarge

[knight66]

There's constant debate in our house over which Mabeth to play: Mrs. Rock loves Abbado; I'm a Sinopoli man. I refuse to concede her taste is better than mine

Sarge

I kept that Sinopoli for years, the only bit I listened to often was the sleepwalking scene, very affecting and bizare all at once.

As to Elgar, I don't think the Solti was in the clear traditional mainstream, but I seem to remember it got a warm reception.

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

I kept that Sinopoli for years, the only bit I listened to often was the sleepwalking scene, very affecting and bizare all at once.

As to Elgar, I don't think the Solti was in the clear traditional mainstream, but I seem to remember it got a warm reception.

Mike

I believe Solti studied Elgar's recordings first before he recorded the symphonies and the English critics liked them because he sped through them just like Elgar did! The English claim they love their Elgar..I don't know. They seem to want it over with as quickly as possible   Colin Davis was also beaten up pretty badly a few years ago for his slow-paced Elgar.

Sarge

[Tsaraslondon]

I kept that Sinopoli for years, the only bit I listened to often was the sleepwalking scene, very affecting and bizare all at once.

As to Elgar, I don't think the Solti was in the clear traditional mainstream, but I seem to remember it got a warm reception.

Mike

And I seem to remember that Monteux's Enigma was for many years a top recommendation, as was Karajan's Vienna Phil The Planets. In fact I seem to remember the British critics warming to the fact that two foreign conductors had brought something different and valid to the works. Both performances still stand up very well now.