Warning: Herbert von Karajan

The new erato · January 30, 2008, 10:11:50 PM

Quote from: Nande ya nen? on January 30, 2008, 08:43:30 PM
A master of all styles. The true, very best conductor of the 20th century.

Complete bullshit. There is no one best. There is/was such a lot of good conductors with their own trademarks bringing such different strengths to such a wealth of different repertoire that there is no one single best. You've bought into the hype machine. Now THERE was an area where he and his company were undisputed masters!

Harry · January 30, 2008, 10:33:22 PM

Quote from: jjfan on January 30, 2008, 05:27:28 PM
I think this is a good time for the newbies to get to know Karajan. So far I only have 1 cd of his (Tchaikovsky Ballet Suites - DeccaLegends), and I like it. Now I'm thinking of what to try next. What's his bread and butter?.. Mozart, Beethoven, ...?

Beethoven-Brahms-Bruckner-Tchaikovsky-Richard Strauss-Honegger-Sibelius.

Harry · January 30, 2008, 10:34:39 PM

Quote from: hornteacher on January 30, 2008, 05:48:00 PM
I've heard Karajan's Mozart described as "a suit of armor, polished but heavy." Can't remember where the quote came from though.

True, nevertheless. Orchestral Mozart was not his forte.

Harry · January 30, 2008, 10:36:27 PM

Quote from: Nande ya nen? on January 30, 2008, 08:43:30 PM
A master of all styles. The true, very best conductor of the 20th century.

And that is almost the absolute truth.

Not all styles, but most styles.

Harry · January 30, 2008, 10:38:36 PM

Quote from: erato on January 30, 2008, 10:11:50 PM
Complete bullshit. There is no one best. There is/was such a lot of good conductors with their own trademarks bringing such different strengths to such a wealth of different repertoire that there is no one single best. You've bought into the hype machine. Now THERE was an area where he and his company were undisputed masters!

Also true, Erato, but Karajan had something special, no conductor around him, and after him, could copy.
The sound he produced with the Berliners, was very special too, no one could repeat that....ever!

The new erato · January 30, 2008, 10:41:56 PM

Quote from: Harry on January 30, 2008, 10:38:36 PM

The sound he produced with the Berliners, was very special too, no one could repeat that....ever!

Which could be said for Furtwangler as well. A special, unrepeatable sound. And that sound is not fitting for all repertoire, which for me is a distinct weakness with Karajan, too much came out sounding lika Karajan and not like the composer. He tried too many things. Perhaps if he had specialized more instead of doing stuff he was not particualrly good at (IMO) I would have appreciated him even more.

Harry · January 30, 2008, 10:54:11 PM

Quote from: erato on January 30, 2008, 10:41:56 PM
Which could be said for Furtwangler as well. A special, unrepeatable sound. And that sound is not fitting for all repertoire, which for me is a distinct weakness with Karajan, too much came out sounding lika Karajan and not like the composer. He tried too many things. Perhaps if he had specialized more instead of doing stuff he was not particualrly good at (IMO) I would have appreciated him even more.

Well I summed up, the composers he was especially good with, and I am sure, nay know, that some composers were out of his league completely. Orchestral Mozart or Bach, and all other baroque things, but honestly there was not much Karajan could not master. The sound Karajan produced was the work of Karajan. He learned the Orchestra how they could work the instruments to maximum beauty, and what came out of it, is for me, is far more impressive as say, the sound Furtwangler produced. And that is too a reason why he is still the premium seller of cd's ever with DGG. There are a awful lot of people outside that loved what he produced. And I am very grateful for the attention he gets on his 100th birthday. But to each its own I say.

The new erato · January 30, 2008, 10:59:48 PM

I admire HvK in a lot of repertoire (Strauss, Bruckner for example). But don't forget that he was the first conductor with his own PR machine and perhaps one of the first to grow to maturity in the media age, and he knew how to pull the strings. Which is one reason I feel that he is overrated compared to other, equally good, conductors.

Harry · January 30, 2008, 11:14:09 PM

Quote from: erato on January 30, 2008, 10:59:48 PM
I admire HvK in a lot of repertoire (Strauss, Bruckner for example). But don't forget that he was the first conductor with his own PR machine and perhaps one of the first to grow to maturity in the media age, and he knew how to pull the strings. Which is one reason I feel that he is overrated compared to other, equally good, conductors.

Where his capabilities as a conductor is concerned, I agree that there are equally fine conductors around, and I did never deny that.
But the sound he produced was and is unique.
His PR machine was and is still pretty impressive too.
I know for sure he is very happy looking down on us Erato.

But I think he is not overrated in any way.
He gets what he deserves, attention from all music lovers around the world.
But then, one could not compare him to any other conductor, right?

Que · January 30, 2008, 11:25:53 PM

Quote from: jjfan on January 30, 2008, 05:27:28 PM
I think this is a good time for the newbies to get to know Karajan. So far I only have 1 cd of his (Tchaikovsky Ballet Suites - DeccaLegends), and I like it. Now I'm thinking of what to try next. What's his bread and butter?.. Mozart, Beethoven, ...?

Enjoy.

What is Karajan known for? (10 pages)

Q

Harry · January 30, 2008, 11:33:28 PM

Quote from: Que on January 30, 2008, 11:25:53 PM
Enjoy.

What is Karajan known for? (10 pages)

Q

Que, you should be nominated for best pathfinder on GMG.

jjfan · January 31, 2008, 01:04:00 AM

Quote from: Que on January 30, 2008, 11:25:53 PM
Enjoy.

What is Karajan known for? (10 pages)

Q

Thanks Q!

Guys, please post your favorite recordings of Karajan on this newly created thread..
Top 5 Karajan Recordings

Thanks!

paulb · January 31, 2008, 02:14:31 AM

Oh gee the karajan-ITES are out in full colors, greys, blacks, and mauves and other puke colored tones that resemble the nature of their hero's recordings.

Grazioso · January 31, 2008, 04:01:37 AM

Quote from: paulb on January 31, 2008, 02:14:31 AM
Oh gee the karajan-ITES are out in full colors, greys, blacks, and mauves and other puke colored tones that resemble the nature of their hero's recordings.

Not all of us bow at that maestro's feet. I've learned the hard way that his recordings are generally best avoided.

Harry · January 31, 2008, 04:20:06 AM

Quote from: Grazioso on January 31, 2008, 04:01:37 AM
Not all of us bow at that maestro's feet. I've learned the hard way that his recordings are generally best avoided.

Isn't that a very harsh judgement Grazioso?

Harry · January 31, 2008, 04:21:28 AM

Quote from: paulb on January 31, 2008, 02:14:31 AM
Oh gee the karajan-ITES are out in full colors, greys, blacks, and mauves and other puke colored tones that resemble the nature of their hero's recordings.

The colors of Karajan were black and greys, but nothing mauve there or other puke colored tones.

Grazioso · January 31, 2008, 04:27:21 AM

Quote from: Harry on January 31, 2008, 04:20:06 AM
Isn't that a very harsh judgement Grazioso?

No, just a lesson learned from personal experience.

Sergeant Rock · January 31, 2008, 04:35:52 AM

Quote from: paulb on January 31, 2008, 02:14:31 AM
Oh gee the karajan-ITES are out in full colors, greys, blacks, and mauves and other puke colored tones that resemble the nature of their hero's recordings.

Paul, the color of puke is usually green and yellow...with a dash of red if you'd been ingesting chili.

Sarge

Sergeant Rock · January 31, 2008, 04:41:43 AM

Quote from: uffeviking on January 30, 2008, 01:28:43 PM
The avalanche of hype

Hey, if the hype includes the complete opera and vocal works on EMI (70 CDs) for €99, I say bring on the hype! This is fantastic. They aren't ripping off the Karajan fans but instead making his recorded legacy available for next to nothing. Bravo EMI.

Sarge

Harry · January 31, 2008, 04:44:36 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2008, 04:41:43 AM
Hey, if the hype includes the complete opera and vocal works on EMI (70 CDs) for €99, I say bring on the hype! This is fantastic. They aren't ripping off the Karajan fans but instead making his recorded legacy available for next to nothing. Bravo EMI.

Sarge

I join in in applauding the hype effort.