Langgaard's Lyre

[Dundonnell]

I find Langgaard probably the most frustrating composer whose music I have ever listened to.....and that's saying a lot

He had obvious talent and was capable of writing music of very considerable power and beauty.....but then, within his music, and sometimes, the same piece are passages of such sublime banality and empty worthless mediocrity that I quite despair

....and IF it is a 'joke' then the joke wears pretty thin

(But then, as Johan will no doubt tell you....I am, supposedly, not possessed of a huge sense of humour )

[cilgwyn]

I'm going to have to have another listen now,but on my cd player,tomorrow. It's too late/early to look for it right now.
Being a bit stodgy,I must admit to a penchance for the more traditionally tuneful No 9!
David 'the Hurwitz' describes it as a " thickly scored demented waltz tune that wants to sound festive but ends up getting blasted by the percussion through one jarring key after another","sarcastic,bitter,pointless music.What makes it work at all...is that Langgaard's structures are always remarkably concise given the idiom employed. He makes his point and moves on...."
  Sorry to quote Hurwitz ,but he's usually very hard to please!

Surely not as funny,Johan,as the last line of Dads Army,the other week,with Cpt Mannering,gawping in horror & spluttering " Good heavens Walker,so that's what's underneath a Scotsman's kilt!" (cue the credits!)
He patently had a VERY good view!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 02:25:16

(But then, as Johan will no doubt tell you....I am, supposedly, not possessed of a huge sense of humour )


Tell? O no, that secret is very safe with me, Colin. 

>

Surely not as funny,Johan,as the last line of Dads Army,the other week,with Cpt Mannering,gawping in horror & spluttering " Good heavens Walker,so that's what's underneath a Scotsman's kilt!" (cue the credits!)
He patently had a VERY good view!!!

[Wanderer]

Regarding the 11th Symphony, it should be noted that it is a programmatic work related  to the myth of Ixion. Depicting a gruesome fate of eternal torment with no chance at redemption might be one of those moments that warrant music trying to be both static and of certain unpleasantness; in that regard, if the music manages to be in some aspects repulsive to the listener, as I gather from some of the above comments, I think it's to the work's credit. The Ixion myth itself holds enough bizarre elements (even by Greek mythological standards)  that beg for a similar musical treatment – something more easily said than accomplished. I find that this work  holds a certain bizarre allure with its obsessive character and almost demonic soundworld that reflects its subject matter in a legitimate way, without at the same time being musically banal or unremarkable - if only for its sheer audacious obsessiveness with its thematic material and extravagant soundscape.

'Danish Havergal Brian'

As already mentioned, I believe this analogy is only valid in terms of relative neglect - and the often intractable need of commentators for the catchy (no matter how inaccurate) image/metaphor - rather than being based on any actual musical similarities; at least I don't see any underlying connection between Langgaard's and Brian's worldview, aesthetic or music.

[Winky Willy]

I don't find the tune of the Ixion unpleasant; it is just rather vapid and the structure of the work is very stupid musically. If I had never heard of anything else by Langaard I would sincerely rate him as something close to an idiot based on that work. I have written better stuff and I write garbage.

[Wanderer]

I don't find the tune of the Ixion unpleasant;

it is just rather vapid and the structure of the work is very stupid musically.

Sounds like you do find the music unpleasant after all. Unpleasantness can be not only aural (and I was not referring to the main theme only either) but structural as well. I think that it is deliberately absurd, a study in grotesquerie as it were (in par with the grotesqueness of Ixion's fate). A surprisingly extreme reaction such as yours gives me the impression that the piece is indeed more successful in this domain than I thought.
To think that the work is also without merit is of course your prerogative. However, such extreme frustration about a work you clearly don't get is rather surprising; surely it can't be your first one.

[vandermolen]

Yes..and that is a problem for me Jeffrey's phrase- "two eccentric loners persevering in the face of public and music establishment indifference"

Now I am not actually sure that I would characterise Brian as 'eccentric', Langgaard yes! But this image is one which has been built up since these composers died and since their music came to be revived. It is a powerful image and there is an attraction to it. Some of us empathise strongly with the image and support, with sometimes boundless enthusiasm, the rehabilitation of the composers and their music. The music may indeed deserve the encomia lavished on it by its fanatical supporters-Brian's certainly does, Langgaard's I am not quite so sure of.

But there are two problems. One if that the critical musical establishment reacts by closing ranks against the lobby of enthusiasts, characterising them as equally 'eccentric' devotees of a justifiably ignored mediocrity. That, I can live with. The second problem-which I regard as more serious, even if less often discussed-is that, in expending so much energy and enthusiasm in extolling the merits of these composers, we tend to have less time, less enthusiasm for other fine composers whose personal stories cannot so readily be transformed into the stuff of myth. These people worked away, perhaps enjoying brief periods of, if not fame, then acceptance before falling out of fashion and into comparative neglect. They are not necessarily colourful characters, we can weave no web of mystery about them, sometimes indeed we know very little about them. But is their music to be rated as so much poorer because they do not attract people to write screeds and screeds about them?

In short(hah ) while Havergal Brian attracts well in excess of 200 pages on this forum and Langgaard 13, other worthy composers struggle to get half a dozen comments in total.

And it is this which worries me

Point taken Colin - Brian just persevered in the face of indifference whereas you only have to look at the photo of Langgaard in the Chandos symphonies 4-6 booklet to realise that he was a nutter (I admire him all the more for it).

[cilgwyn]

Very pc,Vandermolen! Although,I note you,"admire him all the more for that"! Incidentally,so much has been written about Langgaard's 'nuttiness',I wonder whether he actually did suffer from what would be referred to nowadays (but probably not down the boozer!) as suffering from a 'mental health problem',or was he just,simply, a VERY strange person?
There is a fine line. I mean,was it just his personality or an undiagnosed mental health issue,I wonder?
Just imagine,he might have been given tablets now?!!! And if so,I wonder what they would have done to his output?
I remember reading that Van Gogh's creative output was affected by his state of mind. If he was well he did allot of painting,if he was unwell he painted less. Or maybe,it was the other around (I read it somewhere,possibly in the TLS?)

Would a well balanced Rued have been a more boring,or better,composer?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am reading 'Bruckner Remembered' at the moment, edited by Stephen Johnson. I think Bruckner was a far stranger man than Langgaard ever was. I have read Langgaard's biography, and though he certainly was eccentric, I don't think he was a 'nutter'. There are weird things in his music, as you encounter in Brian's music, too, but that just makes his music the unique thing it is. What has always struck me most about Langgaard is how sensuous and beautiful his music can be. The man's 'soul' was very pure.

[cilgwyn]

I am reading 'Bruckner Remembered' at the moment, edited by Stephen Johnson. I think Bruckner was a far stranger man than Langgaard ever was. I have read Langgaard's biography, and though he certainly was eccentric, I don't think he was a 'nutter'. There are weird things in his music, as you encounter in Brian's music, too, but that just makes his music the unique thing it is. What has always struck me most about Langgaard is how sensuous and beautiful his music can be. The man's 'soul' was very pure.

Yes,as if the music was some kind of escape,possibly cathartic,from his tortuous existence! It probably helped keep him as level headed (!) as he was,even though,it was his music which was the cause of so much of his frustration.

[eyeresist]

Sounds like you do find the music unpleasant after all. Unpleasantness can be not only aural (and I was not referring to the main theme only either) but structural as well. I think that it is deliberately absurd, a study in grotesquerie as it were (in par with the grotesqueness of Ixion's fate). A surprisingly extreme reaction such as yours gives me the impression that the piece is indeed more successful in this domain than I thought.

This reminds me of the anecdote about the woman who said of Ravel's Bolero, "This is trash!", to which he replied, "But of course - that's the point."

(^ - A very approximate rendering of the story from memory.)

[cilgwyn]

Torville and Dean or Bo Derek (in her prime) to Langgaard's 'Ixiom'! The mind......erm,boggles!!! I shudder at the former!!!!

Well,I located 'Ixiom',and it's on repeat now. This has to be the shortest appraisal of a symphony (for me,anyway) ever. Six minutes,or so,and it's onto the repeat!!!
  What do I think of it? Well,I'm SO angry I'm frothing at the mouth,rolling around the floor & chewing the carpet!

Seriously,I LOVE IT! I think this could be addictive. Maybe,I'll even end up wearing an ixiom patch on my arm! That growly,Beethovenian grumpiness you get in Ludwig's noisy bits like the fast bits of his Seventh symphony,with those 'jigs'! It's how I feel sometimes,when I see some child screaming or crying in a street or cafe & I think "I wish I could do that too!",but I can't because I'm an adult & I'd get arrested or.......sent somewhere else!

If I was feeling Steve Irwin 'gwumpy',and I was a symphony orchestra,this is what I might sound like!

It's loud & VERY ANGRY,but it beats 'Das Siegeslied' any day........and it's a heck of allot shorter!!!!!!!!

Imagine encoring this at a concert! You could have six encores & still be back in time for supper!

And THAT ending!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Nice to see your conflation of Ixion and axiom, cilgwyn!

[cilgwyn]

IxioN! OOPS! I was just SO excited by this truly terrible & very,very short (AND  LOUD) piece of music!!!!!!!

This is fantastic!

Is there a doctor in the house?I need an Ixion patch!!!!!

[cilgwyn]

Is that an ambulance outside?!!!!

[cilgwyn]

Ok,that's enough! Schubert next!!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 01:19:20

Ok,that's enough! Schubert next!!!!



Are they playing that in your ward?

[cilgwyn]

  No,Lady Gaga!

Actually,I'm playing Mahler's first symphony,now. Sanity! Sanity! After 'Axiom'...I mean,'Ixion!',those opening bars feel like a cooling balm!
I might not need an 'Ixion' patch,after all. Pheeew!!!

[Dundonnell]

I am not- thank God- a Langgaard expert

....but two things-

"Ixion" was, if I recall, not a title given to the symphony by Langgaard himself but by his widow after the composer's death. He had given the symphony a whole host of remarkable titles involving various permutations of 'Sun', 'Satan', 'Devil', 'Terror', Lightening' etc etc.

If it is intended to be a joke then it is a joke in remarkably poor taste....and, needless to say, I don't get it To me, it is vacuous, banal and really pretty dreadful music.

Sometimes I think we can elevate eccentricity into genius when it is nothing of the sort.

[Winky Willy]

Thank you Dundonnell for being right.