Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[karlhenning]

I have never heard anyone really MESS UP Shostakovich symphonies, but please, don't prove me wrong. Let me stay ignorant if anyone has really screwed them up.

Well, at the risk of offending von Karajan devotees (and You Know Who You Are  ), the recording of the Tenth (and no, I don't know which of the two) I've heard buries the brass back in the mix.  Whether the fault rests with the conductor, or with the sound mixer, I do not know;  but the result is a regrettable muting of some of my best-loved highlights in the piece.

In my book, that recording messes up the Tenth.

[karlhenning]

Jansons may be the best bargain at $31 plus at Amazon Marketplace. The upside, this set has very good sound with a variety of orchestras turning in good to very good performances. The downside, few if any of the readings can vie for number one status.

Well, I've got to think the Tenth (Phila) and the Fifteenth (London Phil) contenders there.

[karlhenning]

Well, we must completely disagree.

Jansons has more things to say, as is clearly expressed in his recent Concertgebouw Shostakovich 7 recording. A considerable improvement over his earlier Leningrad. I am most optimistic for his and Concertgebouw's Shostakovich future.

I feel Barshai is a hack compared to Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. If one is hankering for Russian, that $50 would be better spent toward Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Spend some more and get the real thing, which a true Russian lover would probably end up with anyway.

Gentlemen both, it is certainly true that we will often disagree as to what a good price will be, of a given artistic commodity.

That's simply the turf.

[karlhenning]

Interesting exchange between Donwyn and M Forever:

*** I thought about what I could say to make these recordings more appealing to you, but I couldn't really come up with anything that might help you. I don't find them lyrically wanting at all, it is just a different sort of lyricism from expansive, drawn out, speeled out lyricism. I find these performances by Kondrashin and Mravinsky very expressive, in a more stern, terse way, and they both emphasize the classicist aspect of Shostakovich' music. It is not really classicist in the sense of looking back in nostalgia, but in the concentration of form and expression which holds even the longest and most epic pieces together on the inside. Remember Mravinsky was intensely involved in the premieres of several of these pieces, not just because he happened to be there, but because he was Shostakovich' preferred conductor and one of his most ardent champions for many years. Later, the friendship went sour, but that is a different story. In any case, I don't find either Kondrashin or, and especially, Mravinsky far from being underexposed when it comes to the lyrical, expressive sides of Shostakovich' music. Both seem to me to be "spot on" when it comes to transporting a certain "tone" in the music that I find very apt and which sounds to me very "idiomatic".

Very interesting.  Great insight viz. the classicist aspect of Shostakovich (which may seem at odds with the composer's well-known fondness for Mahler).  Yet, FWIW (and from what I've heard of both conductors) I don't take these comments as absolutely selling me on Mravinsky or Kondrashin . . . .

Incidentally, though, this angle of the classicist Shostakovich is partly why I cherish the Haitink recordings I've got.

[Michel]

Well, at the risk of offending von Karajan devotees (and You Know Who You Are  ), the recording of the Tenth (and no, I don't know which of the two) I've heard buries the brass back in the mix.  Whether the fault rests with the conductor, or with the sound mixer, I do not know;  but the result is a regrettable muting of some of my best-loved highlights in the piece.

In my book, that recording messes up the Tenth.

I've got this and find others more satisfying. I will return to it, though, in the survey I am currently undertaking. My biggest problem, despite this however, is actually that I don't much like the symphony!

[Sergeant Rock]

Says David Hurwitz: "The bottom line is that [Maxim Shostakovich] doesn't put a foot wrong anywhere. There's nothing controversial here, no extremes of fast or slow, no exaggerating the dark and miserable--but there's also no underplaying of the music's intensity. Shostakovich catches the flow of each piece, finding a balanced and unusually rich range of expression on both the happy and sad sides of the emotional ledger.  *** The live sonics are very faithful to the sound of the orchestra, and the audience, while present, is invariably well-behaved. I think it's important that Maxim Shostakovich's views on this music have been preserved at last, and if the result hasn't the technical perfection of the best of the competition, it has such honesty and genuine excitement that it really doesn't matter. This is a cycle to live with--a true reference for anyone wanting a baseline view of how each work ought to go, and what it expresses."

Thanks for finding that review, Mr. Minor. I've never considered this set before because every review I can recall was lukewarm about Maxim's recordings. This changes the picture completely. I feel sorry for, Karl, though...he hates Hurwitz and this might put him off the set completely

By the way, anyone looking for Bashai and wanting the best price should check out JPC:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4460486/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

Even with the poor dollar/Euro exchange rate and shipping costs to the States that can be horrendous, it might still be a bargain.

At this price it should be a no-brainer for me, but I'm still hesitating about Barshai. I'm really happy with Jansons (with the exception of his Sixth: first movement way too fast; he completely misses the desolation this music should project) and even more happy with my individual picks for the symphonies.

Sarge

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I am going to have to interject here again because, Donwyn, despite the fact that Barshai is Russian, he doesn't sound typically Russian, not like Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky or Mravinsky.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what it is that you're disagreeing with, Michel. I didn't intend to say Barshia sounds "typically" Russian. My point is simply each Russian has their own ideas of how to approach this music.

I take your point about there not being "one" Russian sound, but if a listener is after the stereotypical one, Barshai certainly is not it.

Well, what exactly is a "stereotypical" Russian sound? As I pointed out the Big Three (Kondrashin, Rozhd, Mravinsky) sound nothing alike.

I'd add that Pletnev in his Russian recordings sound nothing like the Big Three. Ditto Polyansky, Gergiev, and so on...

Harry, I think, asked it best:

But please define if you will, what in your opinion a Russian flavour is and what not!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Michel, I am a bit wondering about your equipment!
I am sorry to say to you that the notion that the Barshai sound is not that good as Haitink, is simply not true.
I have both sets, true they have a totally different sound picture, and a different acoustic, but both are very good.
If you have shrillness, and little mid-range and a booming bass, than first look at your listening room, and if that is oke, change your gear.
Because neither of the things you say is true in the general sense. The recording from Barshai is very good.
Haitink is lush yes, Barshai is lucid and tight, different acoustics.

I agree, Harry.

[karlhenning]

Thanks for finding that review, Mr. Minor. I've never considered this set before because every review I can recall was lukewarm about Maxim's recordings. This changes the picture completely. I feel sorry for, Karl, though...he hates Hurwitz and this might put him off the set completely

Nay, Sarge;  I am chilled steel where Hurwitz is concerned 

He has frequently puzzled me by his scornful contempt for recordings which my ears find excellent;  but there have been instances before now where he has been enthusiastic for other recordings for whose excellence I can vouch as well.

[Sergeant Rock]

Nay, Sarge;  I am chilled steel where Hurwitz is concerned 

He has frequently puzzled me by his scornful contempt for recordings which my ears find excellent;  but there have been instances before now where he has been enthusiastic for other recordings for whose excellence I can vouch as well.

This pleases me, Karl. And, yes, I understand your objections to Hurwitz; he can be puzzling at times and certainly overly harsh but his way of objecting to a recording can be so amusing, I find myself laughing even when I'm violently disagreeing with him on a purely critical level.

Sarge

[George]

An idea:

Perhaps we could start with #1 and listen to the recordings we have in our collection. Then report back with our findings and discuss.

Once we've done that, we could move on to #2 and continue in this fashion until we reach #15.

That way, we could take a closer look at these works and evaluate how many of them are done well by each of the conductors who offer them as sets and then pick a set to buy based on this information. Or, perhaps conclude that buying separate performances is the way to go?

What do folks think about this?

[Michel]

I agree and is what I previously promised to undertake. Otherwise you just get everyone, including me, talking generalisations.

[karlhenning]

I think it's a great idea in principle, and I applaud it;  I don't know if I could keep track with it, in practice.

But I'll still undertake to talk specifics where applicable 

[George]

OK, I will listen to my recordings of #1 in the next few days, take a few notes, and post my thoughts here, unless we want to start another thread. I realize that it wasn't quite the original intent of this thread, so I'd be glad to start up another. What do folks think? 

[sonic1]

I will try to participate in this, however most of my CDs and LPs are terribly unorganized because I just moved to a new place. So I am not sure how completest I can be. I will try.

jared

[karlhenning]

OK, I will listen to my recordings of #1 in the next few days, take a few notes, and post my thoughts here, unless we want to start another thread. I realize that it wasn't quite the original intent of this thread, so I'd be glad to start up another. What do folks think? 

I consider that within the larger mission of this thread;  but if it is felt that a fresh thread should be started, I have no objection either way.

[Steve]

An idea:

Perhaps we could start with #1 and listen to the recordings we have in our collection. Then report back with our findings and discuss.

Once we've done that, we could move on to #2 and continue in this fashion until we reach #15.

That way, we could take a closer look at these works and evaluate how many of them are done well by each of the conductors who offer them as sets and then pick a set to buy based on this information. Or, perhaps conclude that buying separate performances is the way to go?


What do folks think about this?

George, I think its a fine idea. Once the Kondrashin comes in, I will have three recordings of each symphony to compare.

[Bunny]

I also have the Maxim Shostakovich set, and while it's very good it's also very cautious.  I suppose I've been spoiled by the Kondrashin set which lets all the stops out.

Meanwhile, has anyone heard anything about the Yakov Kreizberg recording of the 5th and 9th symphonies?  I have heard from friends whose opinion I trust that it's a magnificent recording -- and in SACD/hybrid sound.

[karlhenning]

I also have the Maxim Shostakovich set, and while it's very good it's also very cautious.  I suppose I've been spoiled by the Kondrashin set which lets all the stops out.

Hmm.  I admit that along with "red in maw, tooth and claw," I am wary of the phrase "lets all the stops out."  Too many critics have sexed up one recording too many with that one, too.  Just saying.

Also, that Maksim Dmitriyevich's recording of the Fourth, which is thus far the only of the symphonies I have heard under his direction, does not strike me as "cautious" in the least.

[Bunny]

Hmm.  I admit that along with "red in maw, tooth and claw," I am wary of the phrase "lets all the stops out."  Too many critics have sexed up one recording too many with that one, too.  Just saying.

Also, that Maksim Dmitriyevich's recording of the Fourth, which is thus far the only of the symphonies I have heard under his direction, does not strike me as "cautious" in the least.

Karl, I like the Maxim Shosty set, but unless you've heard the Kondrashin, you really can't comment on it.  It's not sexed up hype, it's just that Kondrashin is the most exciting and vibrant Shostakovich I've heard -- and I prefer it despite it's awful sound quality.