Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[Steve]

I will add, having now listening to the both of them twice over, that the Jansons remains my favourite for the 1st. Somehow, Kondrashin does not seem to be able to capture my imagination in the way that that the former does. As energetic as the Kondrashin is, his conducting seems slightly distant (epecially in the slow movement) for me. Still, both are excellent performances.

[BachQ]

I might buy the Kondrashin cycle just for the kickass Execution of Stepan Razin

[Steve]

I might buy the Kondrashin cycle just for the kickass Execution of Stepan Razin

[Michel]

As promised here are my immediate thoughts on Shostakovich 8, a symphony I know well.

Haitink

This recording is dark, desolate, and deeply depressing - when you listen to the first movement you are convinced there can be no way out of the harrowing suffering that is assaulting your ears and unsettling your stomach.  This recording is a truly disturbing listening experience in a rich sound, with the amazing sonority of the Concertgebouw, that is unequalled on record.

There is a sense in this particular adagio that something truly awful has happened that is deeply tragic and most importantly, irrevocable. In my view,  this is the central element of this interpretation. In the Russians there is a greater struggle, a greater fight and suggestion of action and of war. In the Russian recordings there remains, despite all their ferocity, a glimmer of hope. In Haitink, it is disturbingly absent; you are presented with an already ruined world. I think Haitink consequently comes across as more thoughtful, since I think we can all admit that contemplating the past is by definition more of an intellectual exercise than firing a bullet from a trench! It is important to note, however, that this fact makes it no more a superior interpretation, just different. However, my personal view is that I find this approach more satisfying.

Even the typically more crass instruments, such as percussion - important in every Shostakoivch symphony - in Haitink sounds more interesting and ultimately more convincing. When used it sounds like gun shots and cannon fire flying across the canvas of the music in a hail of destruction. In the militaristic moments the drums sound more like sombre death march than they do simple military advances. The richness of sound also helps here, whereas there are moments in the Barshai, by contrast, that is sounds ugly. This could certainly be argued as being no bad thing, of course, in a symphony which can hardly be described as beautiful, and certainly not something to play to your children, but this difference is an important distinction nevertheless and one that I again find more satisfying in Haitink.

Barshai

Barshai strikes you immediately as more ferocious and more desperate than depressive. Its immediacy is apparent both in the pacing and in the coarseness, even rawness and grit, of the strings. This is intensified by the balance in the recording, which strongly favours the upper notes, despite what others in this thread have suggested. I would even go so far as to say that it is piercing in places that does not add to the music or the apparently desirable "fury", it instead creates a far less immersive and frankly more irritating experience. Despite this undoubted weakness, the more prominent upper strings do give the interpretation a strong sense of direction, and therefore hope and struggle, prevalent in the Russian recordings as explained in the Haitink review. This, in the rare but powerful moments in the symphony, make for more digestible reprises; in Haitink, on the other hand, no such release is offered. There is a stronger strong interplay  and differentiation between the upper and lower notes in Barshai whereas Haitink sounds more like a mass of darkness. For some, this might equate to sophistication and intelligence, (something normally more associated with a Haitink performance) but for me I think it makes Barshai seem superficial, a little disjointed, and a hundred times less immersive. And this is where Haitink excels; for even if there were flagrant mistakes in the Haitink recording, which thankfully there is not, you probably would not notice them because you are so gripped by the darkness and fear of the music.

One thing often said in favour of Barshai is his closeness to Shostakovich, and therefore immediate legitimacy of his interpretation. But if this symphony, along with the 7th, is, as Shostakovich said, his "requiem", then Barshai can never be considered the authoritative recording. For Barshai is nowhere near dark enough, and not close to being the thoughtful, stirring and deeply emotional turbulent account that you would expect from a requiem, especially if Shostakovich did one, that is delivered by Haitink in spades.

Jansons

I am going to keep my comments here brief, since I am not sure this recording, performed by the Pittsburgh symphony orchestra, should even be considered alongside Barshai or Haitink.

The adagio, the most important movement in this symphony, is grossly underplayed and powerless. It literally sounds whisperingly light; rather than being an oppressive and massive, total, thundering weight upon you, it seems instead like you are peering through a binocular from a thousand yards. Emotionally uninvolved does not convey the weaknesses strong enough, for the playing itself is substandard (though technically sufficient). Part of the reason is the simplistic playing, sure, but it is also the total lack of bass – and this is a conscious choice from Jansons, rather than an inherent orchestra weakness. Why he chooses to be so delicate is beyond me; for the outcome is impotent.

In sum, Barshai is undoubtedly good, but not as good as Haitink. If you want fiery rather than controlled and intense rather than depressing, I would choose a Russian over Haitink, but not Barshai. For Kondrashin and Mravinksy would probably supersede him in this respect (as I cannot say for sure yet as Virgin Megastore have yet to post my bloody Kondrashin box set and I have yet to revist Mravinsky). And other than this "fire", I fail to see what Barshai brings that Kondrashin would not do better. Haitink, on the other hand, is a different paradigm, and on some level incomparable. For what is better between the brutal stereotypical Russian recording and the thoughtful, beautifully disturbing account of Haitink is a matter of personal choice. But what is probably certain is that Haitink is unique, and Barshai is not, and the latter is probably going to be shadowed when that box set finally turns up, whereas Haitink cannot be beaten on his own turf. The only definite fact at this juncture is the total inferiority of Jansons.

[Harry]

I love reading your acount Michel, that first said.
But I contradict you opinion about Barshai, and at the same time agree with you about Haitink.
The sound is good, I checked that on my primary system, and if something would be wrong I should here that. But all is fine, with the Barshai in that respect. Must be your equipment then!
But in the end music is a subjective experience, and so are opinions.
So for what its worth I would say to anyone try before you buy.

[George]

As promised here are my immediate thoughts on Shostakovich 8, a symphony I know well.

In sum, Barshai is undoubtedly good, but not as good as Haitink. If you want fiery rather than controlled and intense rather than depressing, I would choose a Russian over Haitink, but not Barshai. For Kondrashin and Mravinksy would probably supersede him in this respect (as I cannot say for sure yet as Virgin Megastore have yet to post my bloody Kondrashin box set and I have yet to revist Mravinsky). And other than this "fire", I fail to see what Barshai brings that Kondrashin would not do better. Haitink, on the other hand, is a different paradigm, and on some level incomparable. For what is better between the brutal stereotypical Russian recording and the thoughtful, beautifully disturbing account of Haitink is a matter of personal choice. But what is probably certain is that Haitink is unique, and Barshai is not, and the latter is probably going to be shadowed when that box set finally turns up, whereas Haitink cannot be beaten on his own turf. The only definite fact at this juncture is the total inferiority of Jansons.

Thanks for your extensive post, Michel! I now await my Kondrashin box all the more eagerly.

[karlhenning]

Thanks, Michel!

[Robert]

Thanks for your extensive post, Michel! I now await my Kondrashin box all the more eagerly.

George
Some things in life are worth the wait....This is one of them.....

[George]

George
Some things in life are worth the wait....This is one of them.....

[karlhenning]

Now, to be sure, I have Maksim Dmitriyevich's account of the First to fold into my summary, though I will wait until I can listen to it in the same conditions (i.e., on the home stereo) before commenting.

And whenever we get to Nos. 2 and 3, my work will be simple, since I have only Maksim Dmitriyevich and Barshai to compare on these works.

[George]

Now, to be sure, I have Maksim Dmitriyevich's account of the First to fold into my summary, though I will wait until I can listen to it in the same conditions (i.e., on the home stereo) before commenting.

And whenever we get to Nos. 2 and 3, my work will be simple, since I have only Maksim Dmitriyevich and Barshai to compare on these works.

Like Michael McDonald, I keep forgettin' to listen to my sole recording.

I feel certain that the arrival of my Kondrashin cycle will jump start me, though. 

[Michel]

Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....

The first movement opens with the quite  beautiful sound of the Moscow Philharmonic's strings. They strike a medium between the coarseness of the Barshai and the deep, rich warmth of the Concertebouw. They certainly have that stereotypical "Russian" sound that we think of. They also exaggerate the character that is often omnipresent in Shostakovich's music; they jump, shoot and dart about as though they are themselves alive, and with a menace and with a humour that the other recordings do not have. But does this colour make for a satisfying 8th? I am not so sure. It is certainly original, and out of the recordings surveyed thus far, the most noticeably different. However, the so called incredible intensity of these recordings makes for a muddled listen; Kondrashin quite frankly sounds out of control during some of the fast, intense moments even to the degree where it sounds amateurish. But while there are moments where this frenzy fails, it other areas it excels. The well known humour at the end of the third movement, where it consequently explodes, is possibly carried off the best on record. It is an absolute joy to hear. And these moments, where Kondrashin excels, do signal a validity to these recordings that may be proven by the Shostakovich quote you will read in a few paragraphs; for few capture the dark and the bright in the same way Kondrashin does.

And for this reason, despite the flaws, it does have a charm; there is something good about the recording that is hard to express. It may be that it sounds, despite Kondrashin's over zealous manipulation, sincere - after all, it sounds "Russian"; it, for reasons I cannot explain, sounds like "Shostakovich". And I think this is why it has captured the hearts and minds of a number of people on the board. It just sounds right.

If there is any point in a reviewer, however, it is to help people to spend their money wisely, and the box set that this comes in more than guarantees that I will not make the recommendation here. But if you want an "interesting" Shostakovich, which will no doubt incite strong opinions both in its favour and in its damnation, this is the one for you. For me, Kondrashin often goes too far, but he does try. And that human ambition is perhaps why he suits Shostakovich's deeply humanistic music so well, and it is why, being human, those that love these recordings will love them regardless of what I say!

NB. I am sending the box set straight back from where it came, for an immediate refund, due to the damage. I will not, however, ask for a replacement, as I will patiently wait for another reissue where it is released sensibly in a decent box. On another note, the sound is absolutely fantastic in this set, and the way they have been recorded do give them an impressive sense of atmosphere and presence; you do really feel like you are hearing the music live, which is a real benefit.

One final note on interpretation: I have taken this fabulous quote from Shostakovich from the inlay, that I think ought to be considered:

"This new work of mine is an attempt to glance at the future, after-war epoch. The eight symphony has a lot of inner conflicts, which are sometimes tragic and sometimes dramatic. But in general this work is optimistic and life-asserting...The Philosophic idea of my new work can be expressed briefly as following: Life is beautiful. All, what is dark in it, will disapear; while its beauty will triumph".

Certainly something to consider; as I struggle to be anything about harrowed by this symphony. But it does seem that Kondrashin, above anyone one else, has taken heed of this intention.

[Sean]

Can't contribute too much re complete sets but here are my urgent recommendations for five symphonies, perhaps never surpassed (4, 6, & 14 here can change you whole life in fact)-

4 Ormandy
6 Berglund
10 Karajan
11 Berglund
14 Bernstein

[George]

Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....

This might be another topic altogether, but I am willing to bet that someone knows where we can get a nice sturdy box like the ones you get from DG or Brilliant.

Anyone? 

[karlhenning]

. . . my urgent recommendations for five symphonies, perhaps never surpassed [. . .]

4 Ormandy . . .

Sean, if this recording marks something special in your listening, it cannot be gainsaid, of course.  But I've heard this one, and I have two or three others which by my ears are notably better.

. . . but I get ahead of the series . . . .

[karlhenning]

Michel: Rice paper? Crikey 

[Sean]

Sean, if this recording marks something special in your listening, it cannot be gainsaid, of course.  But I've heard this one, and I have two or three others which by my ears are notably better.

. . . but I get ahead of the series . . . .

The sound's a little dated now but it's demonic like I haven't heard elsewhere.

[Robert]

Kondrashin

It finally came through the post, and with much anticipation I opened the packet....

What a disappointment.....

The box is the flimsiest, least professionally put together thing I have ever seen. Absolutely terrible. It came perfectly packed and yet it was still damaged. It is not an exaggeration to say that holding it, you are worried you are going to do so too enthusiastically and break it. The front of it opens with a little male part connecting into a hole to keep it closed that barely grips on and feels like it is going to spring open. The whole shell is atrocious and an absolutely disgrace and should these recordings be worth having, as I will go on to discuss, there is absolutely no point buying this abomination; get a friend to give you copies instead. You could probably design a makeshift box out of rice paper and it be more durable. But on to the recording....

The first movement opens with the quite  beautiful sound of the Moscow Philharmonic's strings. They strike a medium between the coarseness of the Barshai and the deep, rich warmth of the Concertebouw. They certainly have that stereotypical "Russian" sound that we think of. They also exaggerate the character that is often omnipresent in Shostakovich's music; they jump, shoot and dart about as though they are themselves alive, and with a menace and with a humour that the other recordings do not have. But does this colour make for a satisfying 8th? I am not so sure. It is certainly original, and out of the recordings surveyed thus far, the most noticeably different. However, the so called incredible intensity of these recordings makes for a muddled listen; Kondrashin quite frankly sounds out of control during some of the fast, intense moments even to the degree where it sounds amateurish. But while there are moments where this frenzy fails, it other areas it excels. The well known humour at the end of the third movement, where it consequently explodes, is possibly carried off the best on record. It is an absolute joy to hear. And these moments, where Kondrashin excels, do signal a validity to these recordings that may be proven by the Shostakovich quote you will read in a few paragraphs; for few capture the dark and the bright in the same way Kondrashin does.

And for this reason, despite the flaws, it does have a charm; there is something good about the recording that is hard to express. It may be that it sounds, despite Kondrashin's over zealous manipulation, sincere - after all, it sounds "Russian"; it, for reasons I cannot explain, sounds like "Shostakovich". And I think this is why it has captured the hearts and minds of a number of people on the board. It just sounds right.

If there is any point in a reviewer, however, it is to help people to spend their money wisely, and the box set that this comes in more than guarantees that I will not make the recommendation here. But if you want an "interesting" Shostakovich, which will no doubt incite strong opinions both in its favour and in its damnation, this is the one for you. For me, Kondrashin often goes too far, but he does try. And that human ambition is perhaps why he suits Shostakovich's deeply humanistic music so well, and it is why, being human, those that love these recordings will love them regardless of what I say!

NB. I am sending the box set straight back from where it came, for an immediate refund, due to the damage. I will not, however, ask for a replacement, as I will patiently wait for another reissue where it is released sensibly in a decent box. On another note, the sound is absolutely fantastic in this set, and the way they have been recorded do give them an impressive sense of atmosphere and presence; you do really feel like you are hearing the music live, which is a real benefit.

One final note on interpretation: I have taken this fabulous quote from Shostakovich from the inlay, that I think ought to be considered:

"This new work of mine is an attempt to glance at the future, after-war epoch. The eight symphony has a lot of inner conflicts, which are sometimes tragic and sometimes dramatic. But in general this work is optimistic and life-asserting...The Philosophic idea of my new work can be expressed briefly as following: Life is beautiful. All, what is dark in it, will disapear; while its beauty will triumph".

Certainly something to consider; as I struggle to be anything about harrowed by this symphony. But it does seem that Kondrashin, above anyone one else, has taken heed of this intention.

I have the set on le chant du monde...I am trying to figure out if it is the same performance...What are the timings of the five movements....

[Michel]

Would it not be easier for me to tell you when it was recorded?

1967

[Robert]

Would it not be easier for me to tell you when it was recorded?

1967

thanks,  mine is 61....