Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[snyprrr]

Haitink's newer 15th with the Royal Concertgebouw is quite good. You may want to check that one out, snyprrr.

Against Petrenko, it won 3/4, but there was a criticism that his second 'Allegretto' was a little heavy, whereas Petrenko had the requisite impishness. What do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper? Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

1) It seems about everyone's 1st movement is accepted, whether it be 7:50, or 8:30, but

2) in the 3rd, one man's 4:11 is not another man's 4:11. Most of the timings are very close, but the effects of the basic pulse vary wildly from one to the next- it seems it's somewhat difficult to get the shawn rhythm going at the proper accordion tempo.

[Ken B]

Haitink's newer 15th with the Royal Concertgebouw is quite good. You may want to check that one out, snyprrr.

Evil evil evil. I like it.

[Mirror Image]

Against Petrenko, it won 3/4, but there was a criticism that his second 'Allegretto' was a little heavy, whereas Petrenko had the requisite impishness. What do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper? Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

1) It seems about everyone's 1st movement is accepted, whether it be 7:50, or 8:30, but

2) in the 3rd, one man's 4:11 is not another man's 4:11. Most of the timings are very close, but the effects of the basic pulse vary wildly from one to the next- it seems it's somewhat difficult to get the shawn rhythm going at the proper accordion tempo.

I really haven't given Ashkenazy's 15th much of a listen. I may heard it (once), but it's been probably four years ago whenever I bought his cycle. I don't find him to be that compelling of a Shostakovich interpreter. His Prokofiev is quite good and his Rachmaninov is some of the best around but when it came to Shostakovich, I find there's just something missing in his cycle. I feel the same way about Kitajenko's cycle on Capriccio. For me, it's still hard to shake my memory of Kondrashin's Dresden performance. This is my 15th to take to a desert island.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.4



The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG
Chung/DG
Jansons/EMI
Rattle/EMI
Gergiev/Philips
Rostropovich/Teldec
Haitink 'live' CSO

Haitink/London
Ashkenazy/Decca
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)

Jarvi/Chandos


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon
Barshai/Regis-Brilliant
Slovak/Naxos


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Petrenko/Naxos
Caetani/Arts
Kofman/MDG
Boreyko/Hanssler
Bychkov/Avie
Raiskin/Cavi-Music
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY
Slatkin/RCA
Previn/EMI


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???

[Sergeant Rock]

What do you think of Ashkenazy as a potential Sleeper?

I haven't heard it but Gramophone thought well of it in their death match even though it wasn't one of the "winners."

Vladimir Ashkenazy, recorded a year later with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, is more objective than Rostropovich's Lenny-like embrace. Indeed, listening to the nuances of balance and texture Ashkenazy extracts from the woodwind in the first movement highlights Rostropovich's crudeness; this Shostakovich distains small-talk and relays its message with impatient urgency. The low trombone theme in the second movement exemplifies Ashkenazy's qualities — where others crawl he sprints and, proof that slow tempi don't necessarily add default gravitas, the final movements are hauntingly ghoulish. The Scherzo moves at a lick, with Ashkenazy pitching at the opposite end of the scale from Rostropovich's lightness. His textures are brittle, and the tense unison string chords (with squeaking harmonics giving them a unique flavour) are emotionally detached. The finale becomes positively orgiastic as the passacaglia gains momentum. The Glinka reference is again noticeably fast, but has a winsome yearning quality. It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion-writing during the coda becomes a casualty of the brisker speed.

Which recording would you most like to hear that you haven't?

Maxim's Prague.

[André]

An esteemed poster mentioned today an airing of the Kondrashin 13th. While this is probably from the Melodiya set (1967 performance), I think it should be mentioned that that unimpeachable Kondrashin effort, deserving of all the incomia it may have received ocver the years, ougth to be supplemented by a selected few performances.

- As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height. However, heree are a few insispensable additions:

- 6: Adrian Boult and the London Philharmonic (Everest)
- 7: Yevgeny Svetlanov, USSR State Symphony Orchestra (1969 IIRC)
- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra
- 13: Kondrashin, in his own, pionneering 1962 version - that laminated me BTW.
- 14: the first Barshai Melodiya version with the Moscow Chamber Orchestra.

Obviously, others may feel very strongly about their own favourite interpretations, but these are the only ones where I feel an alternative may be of stronger artistic value. Which is not to denigrate the stalwart emotional end musical virtues of KondrashinMs classic cycle.

[relm1]

Maxim's Prague.

I like Maxim's Prague.  My favorite No. 5 is actually Maxim with the LSO on Collins.  http://www.amazon.com/Dmitry-Shostakovich-Symphony-Festive-Overture/dp/B000003VVR  It's a great performance and recording and very polished in a modern sense (unlike Kondrashin which is raw and about to implode with surges of energy).  In general, the Prague account is very well interpreted, and less safe than the Collins/LSO account which is more polished but slightly reserved in a Haitink way (which is also excellent, just different).

[snyprrr]

I haven't heard it but Gramophone thought well of it in their death match even though it wasn't one of the "winners."

Vladimir Ashkenazy, recorded a year later with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, is more objective than Rostropovich's Lenny-like embrace. Indeed, listening to the nuances of balance and texture Ashkenazy extracts from the woodwind in the first movement highlights Rostropovich's crudeness; this Shostakovich distains small-talk and relays its message with impatient urgency. The low trombone theme in the second movement exemplifies Ashkenazy's qualities — where others crawl he sprints and, proof that slow tempi don't necessarily add default gravitas, the final movements are hauntingly ghoulish. The Scherzo moves at a lick, with Ashkenazy pitching at the opposite end of the scale from Rostropovich's lightness. His textures are brittle, and the tense unison string chords (with squeaking harmonics giving them a unique flavour) are emotionally detached. The finale becomes positively orgiastic as the passacaglia gains momentum. The Glinka reference is again noticeably fast, but has a winsome yearning quality. It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion-writing during the coda becomes a casualty of the brisker speed.


Maxim's Prague.

It's a shame that clarity of detail i.e. percussion... coda... casualty...

mmm... well, there ya go... gotta have the Deathmatch blow-by-blow! Haha!! Well, we'll see (hear)...

1) I suppose the next 15th will have to be one of the Legendary Ones- I'm leaning toward the Kondrashin/Dresden...

2) That Maxim/Supraphon isn't listed as a stand alone.

3) That Rozhd., how are the sonics in the climaxes? It sounds good on YT, but I'm just wondering if there's any 'hardness' or whatever they call 'ack' these days. Is this the same performance that ends up on thirty different labels?

4) Any word there on the Boryeko/Hanssler or Kofman/MDG? The MDG has the potential for great sound, no? Hanssler too... I have a feeling that Jarvi is pretty standard here though I've heard precious little outside of good sound...


The rule is: you must engineer the record so the xylophones have that click- along with the piccolos. I don't hear the upper end on, say, Petrenko's samples. The Philips/Schiff CCs disc is almost my standard here. Even DG doesn't do the upper end like Philips...

[snyprrr]

An esteemed poster mentioned today an airing of the Kondrashin 13th. While this is probably from the Melodiya set (1967 performance), I think it should be mentioned that that unimpeachable Kondrashin effort, deserving of all the incomia it may have received ocver the years, ougth to be supplemented by a selected few performances.

- As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height. However, heree are a few insispensable additions:

- 6: Adrian Boult and the London Philharmonic (Everest)
- 7: Yevgeny Svetlanov, USSR State Symphony Orchestra (1969 IIRC)
- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra
- 13: Kondrashin, in his own, pionneering 1962 version - that laminated me BTW.
- 14: the first Barshai Melodiya version with the Moscow Chamber Orchestra.

Obviously, others may feel very strongly about their own favourite interpretations, but these are the only ones where I feel an alternative may be of stronger artistic value. Which is not to denigrate the stalwart emotional end musical virtues of KondrashinMs classic cycle.

Why does the trend seem to be that NO modern conductor of any kind ever seems to play in the old style but simply with the benefit of decent sound? No one plays these (ridiculously) fast speeds at all- is it a pride thing that conductors don't want to incorporate others' insights? It seems many are playing the last movement to 15 slow after Sanderling...

[Sergeant Rock]

1) I suppose the next 15th will have to be one of the Legendary Ones- I'm leaning toward the Kondrashin/Dresden...

Just to make it easier...or harder. The notes from the Gram Death Match:

The case of Kyrill Kondrashin is an odd one. Two recordings from 1974, one studio version with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other a live account with the Staatskapelle Dresden, mix moments of brilliance with passages where the focus goes awry. The studio version is better. An effortless first movement is characterised by careful balancing of all its elements; a coy feel for the opening flute music counterpoints well with the crisply marching brass band music. The second movement begins with confident brass and opulently beautiful celloplaying, but thereafter the pacing looses its tautness — the disintegrating string music falls apart aimlessly, and the low brass march is listless. After the pert opening movement, Kondrashin's Scherzo is disappointing with his needlessly slow tempo upsetting the music's natural gradient. The finale works well during the grandstanding set-pieces, but Kondrashin's large brushstrokes are at the expense of the smaller details. Impetus all but disappears when the texture pares down to a few woodwind instruments, but there's no denying Kondrashin's steely control as he powers the movement to a barnstorming climax. The live version is spoilt by orchestral playing that lurches between so-so and acceptable. The opening movement is taken at such a rapid lick that the woodwind players struggle to avoid tripping over their fingers. Percussion lines are buried in the blurry mix — a version for collectors only.

Me? I prefer the studio performance too...but it might be nostalgia: it was my first 15th.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

3) That Rozhd., how are the sonics in the climaxes? It sounds good on YT, but I'm just wondering if there's any 'hardness' or whatever they call 'ack' these days. Is this the same performance that ends up on thirty different labels?

The climaxes...pretty powerful, and no, I don't hear anything objectionable (hardness, etc). But the sound is odd in places. As a post above noted, the orchestral balance seems out of whack occasionally, with solo instruments obtrusively highlighted at the expense of the accompaniment. But hey, I grew up with Columbia LPs; it doesn't bother me at all    I simply groove on Rozh's weirdness (especially that first movement). Whether the BMG/Melodiya performance I have is the same as on other labels, I can't say for certain. I would assume so, though. Here's what I have:



Here's what Gramophone says:

Gennadi Rozhdestvensky, recorded in 1983, has the advantage of the superior USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra. A nimble opening movement adds demented menace to the droll surface and the percussionists take full notice of Shostakovich's fastidious articulation markings — for example that bass drum player at 3'33", he's sparing no prisoners. As Shostakovich sets off a chain of irrational rhythms in the strings (eight quavers superimposed over sixes and quintuplets) Rozhdestvensky achieves an intriguing sensation of rhythmic snow-blindness where Mravinsky finds only mud. The wrong-side-of-the-mirror psychology of the second movement is probed forensically as the full throttle of the movement's huge climax section is contrasted brilliantly with the microscopic, disjointed string gestures of only a few pages previously. The divisi string passage and celesta/vibraphone dialogue is heralded by a woodblock that ticks ominously. Rozhdestvensky's most problematic movement is the Scherzo. Perhaps he's attempting to capitalise on the already sardonic nature of the writing by crawling at a snail's pace (a slow scherzo — geddit?), but the music loses its idiomatic shape. The finale has that same magnificent structural inevitability that so commends the second movement. Rozhdestvensky's performance is as knowingly eccentric as it is wise.

I like the Scherzo much more than this reviewer.

Edit: I'm listening to it now. The percussion kicks ass 

Edit the Second: The final bars are disappointing. Rozh, or his recording team, fail to make it sound "end of life" or "end of the world" ....it's too loud, too matter-of-fact. Still, overall, it's one of my favorite Fifteenths.

Sarge

[snyprrr]

Just to make it easier...or harder. The notes from the Gram Death Match:

The case of Kyrill Kondrashin is an odd one. Two recordings from 1974, one studio version with the Moscow Philharmonic and the other a live account with the Staatskapelle Dresden, mix moments of brilliance with passages where the focus goes awry. The studio version is better. An effortless first movement is characterised by careful balancing of all its elements; a coy feel for the opening flute music counterpoints well with the crisply marching brass band music. The second movement begins with confident brass and opulently beautiful celloplaying, but thereafter the pacing looses its tautness — the disintegrating string music falls apart aimlessly, and the low brass march is listless. After the pert opening movement, Kondrashin's Scherzo is disappointing with his needlessly slow tempo upsetting the music's natural gradient. The finale works well during the grandstanding set-pieces, but Kondrashin's large brushstrokes are at the expense of the smaller details. Impetus all but disappears when the texture pares down to a few woodwind instruments, but there's no denying Kondrashin's steely control as he powers the movement to a barnstorming climax. The live version is spoilt by orchestral playing that lurches between so-so and acceptable. The opening movement is taken at such a rapid lick that the woodwind players struggle to avoid tripping over their fingers. Percussion lines are buried in the blurry mix — a version for collectors only.

Me? I prefer the studio performance too...but it might be nostalgia: it was my first 15th.

Sarge

Wow, yea, uh...

sorry,- looking at the weather girl! (do you know ANY thin, young, busty girls who are unemployed? doesn't happen, does it?)


Yea, those reviews put Kondrashin and Rohzd in context- it does make things more complex. I'd like to hear MI's response to those Dresden charges!

Still, MI should check out Ashkenazy's 15th. The best thing about Problem Cycles is that there might just be a hidden gem in there. Notice how, when you look at Jansons' set issue-by-issue that his is a very mixed bag. Anyhow, I can't wait.



So, how bout that list of 4ths? More than I thought, but, no Sanderling handy, though we have a Salonen (which hasn't seemingly garnered reviews). Lots of usual suspects... DSCH hunting can be exhausting!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

As a set, Kondrashin reigns supreme and shits over other contenders from a great height.

Crankin' up the radar:






I have half of Kondrashin's cycle and I don't put it on such a pedestal. What it lacks for me is a sense of depth and transparency.

- 11: André Cluytens, French National Orchestra

Definitely agree with this one, though.

[snyprrr]

Symphony 4

I listened to as many samples of the 'Moderato con moto' I were available- of course, only 30secs.- but, EVERYONE pretty much had the exact same mindset- EXCEPT when I heard the Gergiev- a minute faster- there was menace whereas there was jocularity in the others. It was just amazing the character change. The only thing- I noticed that, even in this clip, Gergiev downplays the "quieter" aspects of the proceedings- which is the major criticism of his whole recording. Chung is the only one who plays it as quick as Gergiev (from the samples, don't know about Kondrashin).

[alkan]

Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Symphony 5.   
For something completely different, try Sanderling.    Extremely powerful, and a very original take on the last movement.

[Karl Henning]

Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Most interesting, thanks.

[snyprrr]

Symphony 4.

For a long time, Kondrashin was my favourite, and I still love this recording.     But much to my surprise, I had to demote him to second place when I heard (of all people) ..... Rattle with the CBSO.    A tremendously powerful and idiomatic interpretation which benefits from committed playing and a terrific modern recording.    This is really important not only for the huge climaxes, but also for the quiet passages.   The end of the symphony is absolutely mind-blowing .... first the apocalyptic, dissonant peroration which finally explodes like a nuclear bomb, leaving behind  a devastated twilight world.     Rattle is wonderful here .... a sustained, wierd atmosphere full of bizzare and menacing effects.

Symphony 5.   
For something completely different, try Sanderling.    Extremely powerful, and a very original take on the last movement.

Some say Rattle is too Mahlerian here. I don't even know what that means, but, presumably they're saying DSCH was too young to be feeling the things Rattle brings out in his music? (no, I don't either know what I just wrote)

[snyprrr]

Maxim's Prague.

It seems I've backed myself into the Sanderling/Cleveland corner. Can you tell me, about that looong last movement, does his simply slow down the 'Adagios', and then perk up for the 'Allegrettos', or, is even the ending percussion barrage played as slow as possible? I'm just having a time figuring how he can get 20 1/2 minutes out of the thing when others come in @13 1/3.

[Karl Henning]

Some say Rattle is too Mahlerian here.

Au contraire, that symphony was the firstfruits, we might almost say, of his great friend Sollertinsky's introducing him to the music of Mahler.

[snyprrr]

Au contraire, that symphony was the firstfruits, we might almost say, of his great friend Sollertinsky's introducing him to the music of Mahler.

ah, ok

Who are you liking in the 4th lately? There are at least 5 different Olympian Recordings to choose from at this point- I'm leaning towards Chung for the faster 'Moderato'... but who doesn't want to get all, haha!!?? Who has the absolute best sound?