Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

Started by karlhenning, April 25, 2007, 12:02:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rw1883

I would like to get one more cycle to add to my collection (I have the Kondrashin, Barshai, & Rozhdestvensky).  I'm debating between the Jansons or M. Shostakovich (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3)...if you had the choice, which one would you buy? 

karlhenning

In a sense, I have chosen: I've bought the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, and not the Jansons . . . although I have heard a number of fine symphonies from the Jansons set.

sound67

Quote from: karlhenning on September 12, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
In a sense, I have chosen: I've bought the Maksim Dmitriyevich set, and not the Jansons . . . although I have heard a number of fine symphonies from the Jansons set.

Your choice was not wise. The Maxim cycle (the Prague Symphony one) is certainly not bad, but the orchestra is not quite first rate. The Bavarian Radio Symphony is, and the Jansons cycle is outstanding in those performances where they're playing.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

alkan

Quote from: rw1883 on September 12, 2007, 09:06:03 AM
I would like to get one more cycle to add to my collection (I have the Kondrashin, Barshai, & Rozhdestvensky).  I'm debating between the Jansons or M. Shostakovich (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000I8OIHK/sr=1-3/qid=1189616646/ref=dp_image_0/102-9817053-6018502?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1189616646&sr=1-3)...if you had the choice, which one would you buy? 

Since you already have three excellent cycles, I would go for something different.      My recommendation is the Sanderling set.     It is incomplete   (1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15 only) but the performances are devastating and quite a shock after someone like Kondrashin.         Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.     For me, the outstanding feature of his interpretations is the feeling that this is authentic ..... someone who has lived (and suffered) through this epoch.      Sanderling's ending of Symph no 5 comes as a real shock if you are used to a more "traditional" ending.       Symphony no 15 is simply spine-chilling.

This set (or individual discs) are still available for Amazon.     

By the way, do you have a preference or recommendation for the 3 sets that you already have ?? 

The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 12, 2007, 11:42:13 PM
Your choice was not wise. The Maxim cycle (the Prague Symphony one) is certainly not bad, but the orchestra is not quite first rate.

So, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Offhand, I can think of only one place where the "not quite first rate" applies, and I don't find that it significantly damages the experience of the symphony.  Do you know where I mean?

QuoteThe Bavarian Radio Symphony is, and the Jansons cycle is outstanding in those performances where they're playing.

That's an extraordinary statement, not so much for the content, as for the context, since you seem to compare this so highly favorably to the Prague Symphony set, Thomas!  And the timing is charming, since only yesterday I listened to the disc with the Prague Symphony and Chorus, and Marina Shaguch and Mikhail Ryssov, performing the Third and Fourteenth Symphonies.  These are, in fact, outstanding readings (and Ryssov sings the best "O Delvig" I have yet heard).

In comparison, yes, the Jansons/Bavarian Radio account of this pair of symphonies is generally very good, but no, I do not find the difference anything like you imply.

My ears are, in fact, content in the wisdom of my choice, thank you very much  0:)

karlhenning

Quote from: alkan on September 13, 2007, 12:25:58 AM
Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.

Okay;  now why does this trump Maksim Dmitriyevich, who was living with the composer at the time this music was written, and is the son of Shostakovich?

karlhenning

Well, I do think that I prefer Ryssov to Aleksashkin in the Fourteenth.

karlhenning

Amazon third-party seller Caiman has the Jansons set for $38, which is a good price for such a good set.  The Jansons/Phila Tenth was for long my favorite account of that symphony, and I won't sniff at it now;  it's a shame that in boxing up the complete set, they dropped the companion performance of Robt Lloyd singing the Musorgsky  Songs & Dances of Death!  OTOH, that 'original' disc is now one of those available as ArkivCDs . . . .

rw1883

#568
Quote from: alkan on September 13, 2007, 12:25:58 AM
Since you already have three excellent cycles, I would go for something different.      My recommendation is the Sanderling set.     It is incomplete   (1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15 only) but the performances are devastating and quite a shock after someone like Kondrashin.         Sanderling was living in Russia at the time that this music was being written, and was a friend of Shostakovich.     For me, the outstanding feature of his interpretations is the feeling that this is authentic ..... someone who has lived (and suffered) through this epoch.      Sanderling's ending of Symph no 5 comes as a real shock if you are used to a more "traditional" ending.       Symphony no 15 is simply spine-chilling.

This set (or individual discs) are still available for Amazon.     

By the way, do you have a preference or recommendation for the 3 sets that you already have ?? 



It's funny you mentioned the Sanderling because I have it my cart at Amazon.  There have been quite a few members that have mentioned that set.  I'm going with your suggestion and will buy the Sanderling this week (of course I'll probably buy one of the Jansons/M. Shostakovich at some point later).

For the past couple of months I've been listening to all the Shostakovich symphonies I have in numerical order.  With the three sets, plus all the singles, it has taken me some time.  So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky.  The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.  All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

George

Quote from: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky. 

I absolutely agree. I don't have the whole set, but the 6 or 7 that I have are incredible.

Quote
The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.

A wise move. I have it and though I haven't heard the earlier one, I have no problem at all with the sound.

Quote
All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

Indeed, and if you do find it, let us know?  ???

alkan

Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Okay;  now why does this trump Maksim Dmitriyevich, who was living with the composer at the time this music was written, and is the son of Shostakovich?

Hi Karl,
Well it doesn't, but I didn't see it as a competition !      I have heard Maxim's recordings of 5 and 15, but a long time ago.     I remember them as being very good, especially 15  (which I think is a world premiere recording).      My personal preference remains with Sanderling (for now), but I don't think anyone will be disappointed by Shostakovich's son.
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

alkan

Quote from: rw1883 on September 13, 2007, 09:44:58 AM
It's funny you mentioned the Sanderling because I have it my cart at Amazon.  There have been quite a few members that have mentioned that set.  I'm going with your suggestion and will buy the Sanderling this week (of course I'll probably buy one of the Jansons/M. Shostakovich at some point later).

For the past couple of months I've been listening to all the Shostakovich symphonies I have in numerical order.  With the three sets, plus all the singles, it has taken me some time.  So far I like all three, but my favorite would have to be the Rozhdestvensky.  The Kondrashin I have is from a seller at Ebay.  The sound can be very bright and tinny at times so at some point I'll buy the Melodiya release.  All three sets definitely have their merits and drawbacks (what cycle doesn't?), but if I had money just to buy one it would be the Rozhdestvensky (if you could find it!).

I hope our tastes coincide and you enjoy the Sanderling versions.     It would be interesting to hear your feedback after a first hearing.      Small point, but the notes (written in the form of an interview with Sanderling) are very illuminating and a real bonus to this set.

With Kondrashin I have 2 outstanding favourites ..... 8 and 4.       I love the 2nd scherzo in the 8th, with its incredible drive and the pounding drums (like a monstrous machine running out of control) at the climax.       The 4th is great too, except for the sound which is pretty dry.    I have just bought the Simon Rattle version and it is amazingly good.      I have heard the Rozhdestvensky version of the 4th on the radio and I loved it ..... but I can't find it at a reasonable price.    But when I do I will get it.
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

sound67

#572
Quote from: karlhenning on September 13, 2007, 08:34:58 AM
So, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Offhand, I can think of only one place where the "not quite first rate" applies, and I don't find that it significantly damages the experience of the symphony.

IIRC you were the one who so vigorously criticzed Järvi's Glasgow recordings on the basis of the alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National. Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation), the RSNO are a model of discipline and tonal security. Some have called the style that is evident in the Prague recordings as "authentic", with reference to the less-than-alluring sound of the Russian orchestras of yore.

The Sanderling recordings are indeed very good. I wish he had recorded the complete cycle of 15.

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning


karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
IIRC you were the one who so vigorously criticized Järvi's Glasgow recordings on the basis of the alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National.

You don't, not correctly.  Any criticism I have had of Järvi's recordings had to do with questions of Järvi's preparation/direction. The Royal Scottish National is an excellent orchestra.

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation), the RSNO are a model of discipline and tonal security. Some have called the style that is evident in the Prague recordings as "authentic", with reference to the less-than-alluring sound of the Russian orchestras of yore.

Quite apart from your mistaken recollection at the outset, Thomas, I am disappointed that you did not address this question, which I thought phrased clearly:

Quote from: karlhenningSo, where exactly in the cycle do you find this a problem, Thomas?

Sure, I'll generally agree that the RSNO (heaven knows how you thought I had talked them down) is a finer outfit than the Prague Symphony. Where specifically, in Maksim Dmitriyevich's cycle, do you find this an issue?  Apart from one instance to which I alluded (which I do not find seriously "damaging"), I hear the orchestra playing the music capably, and not capably merely.

It isn't Carter, for mercy's sake, Thomas.

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
Well, in comparison to the Prague Symphony, all braying brass and occasionally awkward strings (but with beautiful wind solos as compensation)

No, no, the Prague Symphony brass do not "bray," not a whit;  so you must be thinking of some other recordings.

karlhenning

On the "braying" front . . . Thomas, I have just revisited the Prague Symphony in some of the movements which, one would think, would tax the brass most:  the third movement of the Fourth, and the third and fourth movements of the Seventh.  If the brass are going to "bray," those are the points in the cycle where one would expect that.  If the question is, do the brass, at full throttle, have all the 'coasting' solidity of the CSO in their legendary recordings, with Previn and Bernstein? The answer must be a frank not quite.  But I didn't hear any incontinence sinking to the description of "braying."

So, where exactly do they bray?  We all could use a laugh as well as the next guy, so point me where I should be listening . . . .

sound67

Karl, I very distinctly remember you saying that the RSNO weren't together in many places in their Prokofiev recordings under Järvi.

As for any particulars on the Maxim cycle, I'll have to address that after the weekend since the box is in my other flat. You were right, I didn't grasp the meaning of your question (where the Prague Symphony not being absolutely world class is actually posing a problem) at first .

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

karlhenning

Quote from: sound67 on September 14, 2007, 08:09:11 AM
Karl, I very distinctly remember you saying that the RSNO weren't together in many places in their Prokofiev recordings under Järvi.

I distinctly said that there is, in particular, a place in the first movement of the Prokofiev Seventh when the violas and the rest of the orchestra are not together.

Thomas, somehow you are taking this fact (not an allegation, it's there in the document) as "alleged inadequacy of the Royal Scottish National."  I don't know how you get from point A to point B.  They are a fine orchestra;  I am apt to lay this instance of non-ensemble at the conductor's feet.  I'm sure they could have played it well, with the right conductor  8)