Shostakovich Symphonies, Cycles & Otherwise

[snyprrr]

Well, Ormandy and Phila are very good in the Op.93. But it's not The Recording I should recommend, if asked.

I missed Ormandy's 10th?... oh, right, on that double with 4. Well, I really have to give Ashkenazy's engineers some credit- if there's one criticism of Karajan, it's the boxy sound: Ashkenazy's climaxes, in this recording at least, are stupendous, with bass mids and highs (scintillating cymbals) in perfect balance. I might give Ashkenazy the Rosette if he had Karajan's clarinettist! (no one does, do they? - a dream!)

On further listening, I'd call A.Davis's 1975 LPO 'soul food', 'charming', 'nice' (in the good way), 'delineated'... given the vintage, one might guess Previn?... but it almost has a... British? feeling? EMI? I dunno... either way, I give Much Extra Credit for a very detailed, polished, and modern sounding recording, a very model EMI 1975 recording, I'd say.

Frank Shipway's BBC/RPO is very raw and powerful, expressive- it might be as good as SantaFe says- it certainly doesn't seem to give anything away. Litton's first LPO/Virgin, though very well played (on a par pretty much with the other Brits), has a recessed recording that doesn't seem to get that much louder when you turn it up (see other argument thread, haha!).

I haven't heard Solti, but some have criticized the last two movements for whatever reason. Jarvi is one that no one has said a bad word about and only very great things. I definitely want a BigNameOrchestra for the 10th, and it seems that there are numerous LPO and RPO renditions- it's almost their piece.

[snyprrr]

sYMPHONY 11

I took Haitink to work this morning, and, sampling the last three movements, realized that I really didn't care for it. My whole love of the work comes from the first ten seconds- lol- and... what else? I like the trumpet and brass work, butthe stereotypical 19th century 'character rhythms' screamed 'War Movie' or some such nostalgia. The third, slow, movement, especially, seemed like Hollywood Russian Music (echoes of Stokowski?). I mean, it was not music WORTHY of my ride to work (it's bare bones Masterpiece before the sun comes up!) I was disappointed. But,... it's Dupe Music... Shosty's Idealism... whatever's under the surface here didn't make any impact on me through the sheer superficiality of the melodies (everyone says "banal"- like the 'evil' analogy). Yea, I know I know- I just don't care for them- they remind me of that Sting song 'Russians'. eeck!

I'll certainly keep Stokowski around. And if I were to tempt another, Haitink (with the 6th) might be the best (it suits Haitink). But- if I had to slog through the 12th (only made it to the six minute mark so far) I

what?

[Karl Henning]

- if there's one criticism of Karajan, it's the boxy sound

Thank you, yes.  There's a huge horn unison which is marked fortissimo in the score, and they sound maybe mezzo-forte-ish on the HvK recording.  Sissies, dammit!

[jochanaan]

Opus 93 has been mentioned.  I'm rather fond of the Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony recording from the 1970s; good playing and an interpretation that actually stays close to the score.

[Brahmsian]

Well, Ormandy and Phila are very good in the Op.93. But it's not The Recording I should recommend, if asked.

They do a great Symphony No. 4 too. 

[snyprrr]

Opus 93 has been mentioned.  I'm rather fond of the Paavo Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony recording from the 1970s; good playing and an interpretation that actually stays close to the score.

Ah, my trolling bears fruit! So, tell me, how's the sound/dynamic levels? It might be nice to compare with Davis '75. And how does that clarinettist compare with Karajan's? oh goody...

[snyprrr]

Thank you, yes.  There's a huge horn unison which is marked fortissimo in the score, and they sound maybe mezzo-forte-ish on the HvK recording.  Sissies, dammit!

Do you know if the 'Originals' reissue has solved any of the sonic problems, or is it something that can't be fixed by remastering?

[Karl Henning]

That's more than I can answer to.

[jochanaan]

Ah, my trolling bears fruit! So, tell me, how's the sound/dynamic levels? It might be nice to compare with Davis '75. And how does that clarinettist compare with Karajan's? oh goody...

It's decent late-analogue, which means the dynamics shouldn't be too wild for your sensitive ears. I doubt the clarinetist is quite up to the Berliners' standard, but he or she plays the theme well enough.

[snyprrr]

It's decent late-analogue, which means the dynamics shouldn't be too wild for your sensitive ears. I doubt the clarinetist is quite up to the Berliners' standard, but he or she plays the theme well enough.

"Late Analogue"

I liiike it!! My new favourite word!

[jochanaan]

"Late Analogue"

I liiike it!! My new favourite word!

As opposed to early digital.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.4



The 'Spectacular Ones'

Salonen/DG
Chung/DG
Jansons/EMI
Rattle/EMI
Gergiev/Philips
Rostropovich/Teldec
Haitink 'live' CSO

Haitink/London
Ashkenazy/Decca
Ashenazy II/Decca (w/Japanese orch.)

Jarvi/Chandos


Other Current Top Choices

Rozhd./RussianDisc (1980s)
M.Shostakovich/Supraphon
Barshai/Regis-Brilliant
Slovak/Naxos


Two Odd Ducks

Herbig/Berlin
Kegel/Weitblick


The Rest of the Modern, High Profile Recordings

"more info"

Petrenko/Naxos
Caetani/Arts
Kofman/MDG
Boreyko/Hanssler
Bychkov/Avie
Raiskin/Cavi-Music
Inbal/Denon

"less info"

Polyansky/VistaVera
Wigglesworth/BIS
Judd/NuevaEra
Simonov/Cypres
Venzago/MusiquesSuisse


The Three Americans

Ormandy/SONY
Slatkin/RCA
Previn/EMI


The Originals

Rozhd./Alliance (1962)
Kondrashin/Profil (1960s)
Kondrtashin/Melodya-BMG
---/Regis-TransitionsLive???

[snyprrr]

Jansons and Barshai have arrived, and I await this evening's DeathMatch:

Haitink

Masur

Solti

Rostropovich

(Kamu)

(Shallon)


Only Inbal is missing... for now... I anticipate bloodshed...

[Karl Henning]

Good luck!

[snyprrr]

Good luck!

Good news!

Based on the above List, what do you think the outcome was? Well, today I was actually pleasantly surprised for a change! As you know, I was trying to displace Haitink from my cockles, when All-Comers Simply Failed to make much if any impression. Though I'd still like to add Inbal into the line-up (for Denon's sake), I think we can safely conclude a few matters.

MIND YOU- I've only sampled the opening of the first movement up until the singer has settled in, and also the opening of the second movement- I mean, yes, I'm being somewhat superficial- but at least my sampling rate is higher than Amazon's! We're using Haitink as the Absolute Baseline Standard here. My Volume setting is 5 out of 10. I'm going to break it down this way:


OPENING

We all know Haitink's opening bell- because we can hear it! One of the saddest realities here is that 90% of the competition opens the Symphony sotto voce, o-bli-ter-a-ting the opening bell. The same also have woefully light bass strings, and only the brass is prominent, making for an all around horrendous impression.

Rostropovich is the worst: his decibal level throughout is as if you're getting popcorn. I have to turn the Volume up to 10 (11!) to make it sound like Haitink. I mean, sure, if you want me to do that, it begins to bloom- but, I'm not going to Git 'Er Done that way. Rostropovich, or the engineers, are infuriating here. Is there a chorus? Good singer.

Masur and Solti have very similar sound profiles. I hear no bell (at 5) with Masur; I can't quite tell if I do with Solti. Both infuriated me here. Both of their respective string sections are... where? But, as soon as the brass come, you here them, pointing up how low the strings and percussion are. However, and unlike 'povich, both get progressively louder until after the chorus intro, so their transgressions aren't as aggregious(sp) as 'povich's. But, the low wattage recording infuriate, especially since people rave about them (especially Masur/Teldec). No bell, no soup for you!

Haitink sounds like The Standard he is- Don't Ever Again Deny Haitink is This Opening! The chorus is Just.So.with.the.Strings. Chilling Decca sound.

SO- NOW- drum roll please...



You know I had trepidation concerning Jansons, but Grady Harp assured me that it was now the best on the market. (Pushes 'Play') THAAANK YOU!! YES!! All I ever asked for was to hear the bell. Thank you Mariss Jansons for Not Disappointing Me. Tusan Takk!! Honestly, Haitink is just a tiny little touch fresher in my opinion (hear the brass), but Jansons is rich and lush and deep dark Red toned in that EMI way. And you can hear everything, and the strings- FINALLY- are impressive!! THANK YOU!! And the entrance of the chorus- though maybe not exactly like Haitink- is Good Enough Thank You Very Much Indeed (after sooo much Disappointment).

Maybe the only think I din't like as much was Aleksashkin, but, I'm just glad to hear the bell right now. let me wallow! (looking back over sentence- one for Cato's Gramm... uh -er -ar??)

What of Barshai? you ask.

That's right, I forgot,... there you are. OK,... here goes...

What?

             Wait...

                                      HELLO!!

WOW!! Barshai has actual Best In Show Opening Bell with Strings and Brass Intro- I"M ACTUALLY IN SHOCK!!- the decibel level pummels Haitink (ouch- sorry Bernie!),- I'm just in shock- it's such a nice, raw recording- all the instruments are rich, ripe, and fruity. Oh, the Glorious Bell! Barshai Understands! Chorus comes in just fine. Aleksashkin, though now my Least Favoured Singer (sorry guys, the man's vibrato is like a Fukushima geiger counter!), cannot dim my enjoyment of Good Accompanyment(sp).

I'm just so glad that these two have at least started a Conversation. (I might like to try Inbal, Temirkanov (though I can't see the sonics bettering Jansons or Barshai or Haitink), and maybe Caetani (Italian band might be interesting here))




First 30 Seconds of Second Movement:

Barshai = ffff

Haitink = fff
Shallon = ff-fff

Jansons = ff

Solti = f
Masur = f

Rostropovich = p (utterly unbelievable)


Shallon actually did better overall than my initial disappointment led on. You can actually hear the bell, and the 'live' sound is ok but you'd have to turn it up. Kamu also does well sonically; I didn't like his chorus entry- I also had a skipping issue which precluded further participation.


Frankly, I'm shocked at how good the Haitink is, considering I've complained about it for so long! Jansons is a worthy companion. Both have very different sound profiles which compare very nicely.

Perhaps by accident, Barshai is in a league of his own- FINALLY I can at least BREATHE!! (YES- I HAVE been holding my breath for months now!!) nap time

[jochanaan]

snyprrr, I think you've been listening to too much death metal or punk or something.  Some of us like the dynamic subtleties in recordings like Masur's.  (I'm not familiar with the others, so can't say about them.)

[snyprrr]

snyprrr, I think you've been listening to too much death metal or punk or something.  Some of us like the dynamic subtleties in recordings like Masur's.  (I'm not familiar with the others, so can't say about them.)

What's your system set to?

So, you hear the bell in the opening? The deep rich bass strings? I mean, if you've heard no other, I understand- but if you then hear Haitink,... wait... waht?

I'll give you all, that, for the most part, once the singer starts and gets going, the criteria seem to even out amongst much of the competition.

Well, anyway, I had searingly high hopes for the Masur at the time, but... and i'm saying per your Quote, that, Subtilties(?) ARE being lost (and no, I haven't been listening to metal- let me tell you, that as an acolyte of Pete Townsend, I have come a long way from the days when I would willingly SUBJECT myself to the notion of LOUD IS ART- so there... I like to be quiet... so... hmmm....

I know Jens also recommended Masur. Seriously? Don't you have to 'Craaank It Up' to hear the opening, at which point you're going to have to turn it down later? And Solti's the same way, and Rostropovich sounds like he lost his earpiece (I mean, ANYONE? have the Rostropovich Cycle and could comment on the dismal dismal sonic profile of his 13?).

So just in case, listen to Masur again, and I tell you straight up, that opening bell you're faintly hearing, and those bass strings?... on Haitink, Jansons, and Barshai they have so much more subtil dynamic shading and fruity brass frequencies that- at least with Barshai- it's like night and day.



anyhow-

listen to the sample of the 2nd mvmt of Caetani's 13th, on Amazon. Are those two in-your-face sneezes or is that a digital glitch or waht?

[snyprrr]

No.1................................ Bernstein/SONY, Bernstein/DDG, (Rostropovich)                                                                                                              (Orandy)


No.2
No.3


No.4................................. Jarvi, Slovak, Rostropovich, M.Shostakovich (en route)


No.5................................. Rostropovich/DDG, Ashkenazy/Decca, Mackerras/RPO, Bernstein 1959, Bernstein 1979, Inbal/Frankfurt


No.6................................. Bernstein/SONY, (Haitink)


No.7................................. Bernstein/DDG

No.8................................. Previn/EMI 1973    (frankly, I got Haitink- and felt somewhat underpowered- need help here- Jansons?... or just love Previn? Mrav?)


No.9................................ Ashkenazy (by default, but excellent), Solti 'Carnegie Project' (excellent), (Rostropovich)


No.10............................... Karajan1982 (from forever), Ashkenazy, Shipway, Davis/EMI         (Litton/Virgin somewhat uncompetitive- London orchs. own 10!)


No.11............................... Stokowski (from forever), (Haitink)

No.12


No.13................................ Haitink/Decca, Jansons, Barshai/WDR,                                         Masur, Solti,         Rostropovich, Shallon,   Kamu


No.14................................ Rostropovich1973, Inbal, Slovak,                                                                         Jarvi,      Lazarev


No.15................................. Ashkenazy, Sanderling/Cleveland, Rostropovich   Jarvi (mm...)     Jansons (mm...)         Solti (mm.... ok)         Dutoit? Dresden?...

[jochanaan]

What's your system set to?

So, you hear the bell in the opening? The deep rich bass strings? I mean, if you've heard no other, I understand- but if you then hear Haitink,... wait... waht?

I'll give you all, that, for the most part, once the singer starts and gets going, the criteria seem to even out amongst much of the competition.

Well, anyway, I had searingly high hopes for the Masur at the time, but... and i'm saying per your Quote, that, Subtilties(?) ARE being lost (and no, I haven't been listening to metal- let me tell you, that as an acolyte of Pete Townsend, I have come a long way from the days when I would willingly SUBJECT myself to the notion of LOUD IS ART- so there... I like to be quiet... so... hmmm....

I know Jens also recommended Masur. Seriously? Don't you have to 'Craaank It Up' to hear the opening, at which point you're going to have to turn it down later? And Solti's the same way, and Rostropovich sounds like he lost his earpiece (I mean, ANYONE? have the Rostropovich Cycle and could comment on the dismal dismal sonic profile of his 13?).

So just in case, listen to Masur again, and I tell you straight up, that opening bell you're faintly hearing, and those bass strings?... on Haitink, Jansons, and Barshai they have so much more subtil dynamic shading and fruity brass frequencies that- at least with Barshai- it's like night and day.

Well, Masur could use a little more subtlety as a leader; but I was primarily reacting to what I read as a complaint that the soft passages are too soft--a complaint I've heard from you about other recordings.   Right now my personal and living situation precludes fancy stereo equipment, but when I had a good system I usually liked to listen at about 2 on a dial that goes to 10; that's plenty for the loud sections yet I can still easily hear soft sections--unless there's a lot of background noise.  For example, I never listen to intensely dynamic recordings when I'm driving or riding the bus!  You completely lose the soft sections.  Yet I tend to like the kind of intense dynamics one finds in Solti and Karajan recordings and some others, especially modern digital recordings--as long as I have a quiet place to listen. And as a performing musician, I know just how hard it is to produce those extreme dynamics, so there's the excitement factor for me.

[Karl Henning]

Jansons is excellent in the Eighth.