Please listen... Is that kind of variable tempo delay called 'swing'?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Hi,

I currently like Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, 2nd mvmt., because of that beautiful melody which doesn't go out of my head... I have the Karajan Gold recording (bpo) on cd and Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, which I have from whatever download service.

I'll post 2 excerpts. The Karajan one is very straightforward. The Bernstein has some kind of tempo delay, it's slower, but kind of variable in tempo. It's especially there in the 2nd repetition of the melody.

1. Is that called "swing"?
2. Is Bernstein doing that often?
3. Is it possible the Composer noted "swing" (if it's the correct term) in the score?

I reckon apart from the composers will Bernstein felt free to do this. BUT: I like it.

Karajan: [mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/t4karajan.mp3[/mp3]
Bernstein: [mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/t4bernstein.mp3[/mp3]

Best regards
Michael

[MishaK]

I'll post 2 excerpts. The Karajan one is very straightforward. The Bernstein has some kind of tempo delay, it's slower, but kind of variable in tempo. It's especially there in the 2nd repetition of the melody.

An odd place to excerpt, since  the conductor here has next to nothing to do. Lenny probably just told the Oboist "the world is your oyster - run with it!". BTW, here for the visuals is Barenboim literally doing virtually nothing while Alex Klein does his magic. In this place it's all about the oboist. You will note that even in the HvK excerpt there is some slight slowdown at the end of the first phrase and the beginning of the second, which has to be there for it not to sound mechanical.

1. Is that called "swing"?

No. It's called tempo rubato, literally "stolen time". The idea being, though, that you have to give back at some point what you have taken away, so that the overall pace remains more or less steady.

2. Is Bernstein doing that often?

Yes.

3. Is it possible the Composer noted "swing" (if it's the correct term) in the score?

No. I'd be surprised if Piotr even bothered to note as much as "rubato".

[MN Dave]

3. Is it possible the Composer noted "swing" (if it's the correct term) in the score?

Possibly, if he owned a time machine.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

An odd place to excerpt, since  the conductor here has next to nothing to do. Lenny probably just told the Oboist "the world is your oyster - run with it!". BTW, here for the visuals is Barenboim literally doing virtually nothing while Alex Klein does his magic

Thanks for this one. All in all I like it slower. The Bernstein one takes 12 minutes!

No. It's called tempo rubato, literally "stolen time". The idea being, though, that you have to give back at some point what you have taken away, so that the overall pace remains more or less steady.

Ah thanks, I'm not into that whole terminology. More or less steady, probably? So if I understand you correct, a tempo rubato is some kind of delaying and trying to catch op the delay, so the overall composition would still go in a line with a (virtual) metronome...

Oh I remember there must be a kind of tempo rubato then in Sibelius 3/2 (Segerstam/Helsinki), at 1:45, he plays it this way making it sound very alive. But most other interpretations don't slow down the tempo at that passage. Yes it's a slowdown, is that also called tempo rubato? There's no catch up with the delay, the orchestra simply continues playing at normal speed...

[MishaK]

Ah thanks, I'm not into that whole terminology. More or less steady, probably? So if I understand you correct, a tempo rubato is some kind of delaying and trying to catch op the delay, so the overall composition would still go in a line with a (virtual) metronome...

Oh I remember there must be a kind of tempo rubato then in Sibelius 3/2 (Segerstam/Helsinki), at 1:45, he plays it this way making it sound very alive. But most other interpretations don't slow down the tempo at that passage. Yes it's a slowdown, is that also called tempo rubato? There's no catch up with the delay, the orchestra simply continues playing at normal speed...

It's not that simple. It's not going to be precise, but the idea with rubato is that you have a general overall pace and you will speed up and slow down in order to phrase appropriately for the desired interpretive result. This usually won't be marked, though some composers will specifically note when they want rubato. Either way, there is no rule on what is too little or what is too much. But working with singers, whether in opera or lieder, is a good way of picking it up as they have to phrase not just music, but also words and they need to come up for air, which necessitates a slowdown if you don't want to clip the phrase. 

What you are describing with Segerstam - not having heard it or looked at that score - is not necessarily rubato. There may be many places in different scores where the composer purposely asks for a slower tempo or a slowing down of the main tempo by indicating ritenuto (hold back) or ritardando (delay, slow down) - the same thing, really, and often just abbreviated as rit. - or writing meno mosso (less moving/flowing) for an entire section. The opposite would be if he writes accelerando (speed it up). Either one may be sudden or stretched out (poco a poco) over many bars. If one entire section was at a slower pace and a return to the original tempo is desired, he may write Tempo I to indicate such a return to the pace of the first section.

BTW, Bernstein's oboe is not a case of "swing" but more a case of "blues" with that level of melancholy. 

[Mark G. Simon]

Swing is a special kind of rhythmic phenomenon specific to jazz. You will not find any examples of "swing" in music by Tchaikovsky, unless it be a jazz adaptation such as Duke Ellington's Nutcracker Suite.

[MishaK]

I have the Karajan Gold recording (bpo)

PS: Isn't the Karajan Gold rather with the VPO? That oboe certainly sounds like it.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

PS: Isn't the Karajan Gold rather with the VPO? That oboe certainly sounds like it.

My bad, yes of course, it's VPO. You can hear that from the oboe sound? 

[MishaK]

My bad, yes of course, it's VPO. You can hear that from the oboe sound? 

Yes. Compare the three. Worlds apart. Not in quality, but color and tone.

[Mark G. Simon]

a broader definition of swing is how 'the time/pulse' is dealt with, so in this sense all music swings in it's own way...
but 'jazz swing' has it's own definable characteristics...

I think that's stretching a term to the point where its meaning is lost.

The term "swing" never arises among classical musicians, in any case. They have other words for "how the time/pulse is dealt with".

[jochanaan]

"Swing" has a very specific meaning.  In "swing style," the basic rhythm is displaced slightly so that, for example, two eighth notes sound as though they're more like a triplet of a quarter note and an eighth note: "doo-be-doo-be-do."  The opposite is "straight," in which the notes are played exactly in time--"tempo giusto" in classical parlance.

Now, Bernstein could swing with the best of them, and often did--when the music called for swing.  But, as O Mensch and others have said, this is tempo rubato, not swing.  And yes, Bernstein was also noted for liberal use of rubato, while Karajan was more straightforward in his tempos.

It's very gratifying to an orchestral musician when conductors like Bernstein and Barenboim allow him/her to "take the lead" while the rest of the orchestra acts as accompaniment.  I daresay most oboists would do that here anyway, and would greatly resent any conductor who insisted on micromanagement. There's a story about a nineteenth-century flutist who said, "Well, I'll do it this way in rehearsal, but just wait till the concert!  After all, it's my flute." (I have played this in concert; and yes, the conductor let me lead. )

[Symphonien]

The term "swing" never arises among classical musicians, in any case. They have other words for "how the time/pulse is dealt with".

Of course we mustn't forget György Ligeti who actually uses the term "swing" to describe tempo fluctuation in a couple of his Etudes. Most notably, in Arc-en-ciel, his tempo indication is "Andante con eleganza, with swing", stating in a footnote:

Varying tempo: The metronome mark represents an average, the semiquaver movement fluctuating freely around this average tempo, as in jazz.

En Suspens also has for its tempo indication « avec l'élégance du swing ». So it seems Ligeti didn't mind using the term "swing" as opposed to "rubato" in these works which are partly inspired by some elements of jazz.

This is not to be confused with "swing feel" of course, the triplet crotchet-quaver rhythm that Jochanaan refers to.

[Mark G. Simon]

Of course we mustn't forget György Ligeti who actually uses the term "swing" to describe tempo fluctuation in a couple of his Etudes. Most notably, in Arc-en-ciel, his tempo indication is "Andante con eleganza, with swing", stating in a footnote:

En Suspens also has for its tempo indication « avec l'élégance du swing ». So it seems Ligeti didn't mind using the term "swing" as opposed to "rubato" in these works which are partly inspired by some elements of jazz.

This is not to be confused with "swing feel" of course, the triplet crotchet-quaver rhythm that Jochanaan refers to.

Ligeti uses it precisely because he wants the performer to think in terms of jazz, so the jazz connotation of the term remains.

One can always unilaterally redefine a word contrary to its accepted meaning, but it only serves to confuse people.