Carmen!

[uffeviking]

I just now saw this thread, deleted my post I had under 'General opera news' and will post it here, more fitting. Our absent friend Nigel wrote one of his masterpieces about the Carmen he saw:

http://npw-opera-concerts.blogspot.com/

[Lilas Pastia]

Very entertaining . I wonder if the cell phone fink was Jack Lang?

[zamyrabyrd]

And very timely. Having the same production on TV (5x in May) would put me off going to see it live.

From Mezzo's site:

Bizet's Carmen
Opera (180 mins), director: Don Kent
Composer: Georges Bizet
Direction: Daniel Barenboim
Staging: Martin Kusej
Orchestra: Statskapelle de Berlin
With Rolando Vilazon, Marina Domashenko, Alexander Vinogradov, Norah Amsellem
Production: Euroarts

"Daniel Barenboim, the director of the Berlin Staatsoper, presides over this December 2004 reprise of Bizet's Carmen, staged by Martil Kusej from Austria. The Russian mezzo soprano Marina Domashenko, who played the title role in Verona and New York, once again incarnates the torrid bohemian, the archetype of the ardent and passionate woman. Her partner is the young Mexican tenor Rolando Villazón, who has received wide acclaim as well as the most prestigious awards for his performances over the past few years. A true lyric star, Villazón charms audiences with his dazzling charisma, his rich timbre that borders on a baritone, and his sharp musicality..."

About the latter, the high Bb in "La fleur" sounded precisely like a baritone trying to reach into the tenor register. Too bad he didn't try to float it instead. But if anything, belting it out shows true tenor grit.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

I just thought of something that always bothered me about the tenor aria: "LA fleur que tu m'avais jetee". The first note is a quarter, the highest note on a downbeat, and the second (that one might think would be more prominent than the article la) descend with the rest of the phrase in eighths. En suivant, everything seems to be more or less according to speech patterns until towards the end: "CAR (high Ab 2 beats) tu n'avais...", "Q'UA jeter..." "POUR t'emparer...". Why emphasize the article?

Does anyone have any explanation for this, except that maybe the music came first and the words, later?
The end of the aria is especially treacherous, to end on a Bb after a full phrase must be REALLY uncomfortable...

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

Here is Obratsova conducted by Kleiber in Carmen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rtW9HNNO8k&mode=related&search=

I seem to recollect that Karajan said she had the voice of a wild animal. I am not sure whether that was a compliment. I wonder what language she is singing, some Gypsy argot. However, I like what Kleiber does.

And I wonder what scale she is singing in, a perfect example of flattening due to air pressure. I really can't stand the "potatoes in the throat" style of Slavic singing. It would have been nice to hear more of Kleiber but the orchestra was simply upstaged by the jingling and clanging.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

Here is Obratsova conducted by Kleiber in Carmen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rtW9HNNO8k&mode=related&search=

I seem to recollect that Karajan said she had the voice of a wild animal. I am not sure whether that was a compliment. I wonder what language she is singing, some Gypsy argot. However, I like what Kleiber does.

A much better version is Berganza's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK-3XCQ5cOM&mode=related&search=
Don't know if it is with Abbado that longears mentioned. But it has color, balance and even some restraint in the beginning. The latter I seem to remember from Callas' recording, subtle and even menacing.

If anyone is interested check out the rest of the clips of Berganza in Carmen:
The quintet is excellent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyZIc5Ce-8&mode=related&search=
The sound didn't seem to be loud enough in the Habanera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkGoNplMckI&mode=related&search=
The duet with Domingo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SF2uetPALQ&mode=related&search=
Very expressive "fleur", a real Latin lover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO7GyQub0BU&mode=related&search=

ZB

[Lilas Pastia]

ZB, I can't tell you why these words are emphasized (CAR, QU'À, POUR), other than the music calls for a long note at the beginning of each phrase. BTW, none of them is an article. They're what are called petits mots (small words), such as prépositions, conjonctions, pronoms relatifs etc. Same thing as in English: for, to, with, so, etc. They serve to introduce a phrase section, and as such they can be emphasized in speech, whereas an article (le, la, les) should not. The exception to that rule is the beginnning of the aria (LAAAA fleur que tu m'avais jetée), where the same rythmic pattern is at work - exactly the same as in "PAArle-moi de ma mère". Prima la musica in this instance.

Thanks for the Utube excerpts, they're really informative. I love Berganza, but in this instance I don't understand why she sings the whole scene sitting. The context calls for Carmen to join and lead the dance, as Zeffirelli has Obraztsova do (or Regina Resnik here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1YunTgUzQ&mode=related&search= .) And although the orchestra is a bit swamped by the stage activity, you still hear more of it than in the Berganza excerpt (is that from the Edinburgh Festival, with Abbado?). Pizzicato accompaniment in particular is brilliant.

[zamyrabyrd]

ZB, I can't tell you why these words are emphasized (CAR, QU'À, POUR), other than the music calls for a long note at the beginning of each phrase. BTW, none of them is an article. They're what are called petits mots (small words), such as prépositions, conjonctions, pronoms relatifs etc. Same thing as in English: for, to, with, so, etc. They serve to introduce a phrase section, and as such they can be emphasized in speech, whereas an article (le, la, les) should not. The exception to that rule is the beginnning of the aria (LAAAA fleur que tu m'avais jetée), where the same rythmic pattern is at work - exactly the same as in "PAArle-moi de ma mère". Prima la musica in this instance.

Thanks for the Utube excerpts, they're really informative. I love Berganza, but in this instance I don't understand why she sings the whole scene sitting. The context calls for Carmen to join and lead the dance, as Zeffirelli has Obraztsova do (or Regina Resnik here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1YunTgUzQ&mode=related&search= .) And although the orchestra is a bit swamped by the stage activity, you still hear more of it than in the Berganza excerpt (is that from the Edinburgh Festival, with Abbado?). Pizzicato accompaniment in particular is brilliant.

That's just the point, in this aria the music doesn't fit the words or the other way around. And my using the word "article' was an oversight. I'm just imagining the same aria in English: "THE flower that you cast at me" or "BECAUSE" or "THAT" or "IN ORDER TO". "SPEAK to me of my mother" is still OK, one language or another. Perhaps those "little words" in French are just as important as the "big ones" and can be emphasised, although they wouldn't be called as such. But usually in singing, phasing and key words go together.

I was thinking later that MAYBE, just MAYBE, Don Jose was so discombobulated like Gilda in Rigoletto that it is hard for him to get the words out or something like that.

ZB

[Lilas Pastia]

I absolutely agree. But I guess that in opera compromises have to be found. In French, syllable emphasis is exceptional, whereas it's the norm in other languages (English and  Spanish for example). All syllables have more or less equal accenting (accent tonique). So if words are set to music and the rythmic pattern calls for a long note, it's bound to alter the normal speech rythm. The examples you provided are flagrant distortions of natural speech. Some syllables have been artificially accented to fit the musical line.

In last week's Met broadcast intermission, it was mentioned that Carmen is one of 5 operas in which words and music are in perfect accord (the other 4 being Der Rosenkavalier and the 3 Mozart-Da Ponte collaborations). I suppose that's what makes them so musically as well as intellectually satisfying. But perfection is not found in this world, and you have touched on a very good example. OTOH, it should be noted that the whole Flower aria is built on that rythmic pattern with a rising/falling musical line. In Carmen's Séguedille the speech pattern is intact, making for a more rapid, almost metronomic delivery. That allows the rythmic screws to tighten as the scene progresses, with increasingly faster rythm. Absolutely brilliant.

BTW the reason I have trouble with Vickers' Don José is his attempt at a pianissimo high B flat at the end of the aria. Totally unnatural for his type of voice. It makes me wince every time.

[Tsaraslondon]

BTW the reason I have trouble with Vickers' Don José is his attempt at a pianissimo high B flat at the end of the aria. Totally unnatural for his type of voice. It makes me wince every time.

Even though he is attempting to do the composer's bidding? Would you rather he ignored the pp injunction and just belted the note out?

Speaking of that final rising scale to a pp high Bb, Carreras manages it pretty well on Karajan II, though, when I heard him sing it in the theatre, he settled for a much less dangerous mf.

[zamyrabyrd]

Villazon positively punches out the last Bb in the aria and THAT makes me wince.

I never really thought about it until now (don't sing tenor arias, anyway) but there are quite a few vocal snares in "la fleur". Starting from the end, "t-w-a", gosh, how does one do a "w" on a Bb? Other vocal composers like Rossini, Puccini and Verdi would have never asked that of a singer. But then Bizet had to deal with those hybrid French vowels. Or maybe he didn't write enough vocal music. To start on long high notes like on the qu'a, car, pour descend and then scoop up a little is traversing treacherous waters indeed. The beginning itself from a high F is simply scary. The English version of the Kalmus edition, however, shows that perhaps French is still the better choice:

"The flow-er that you threw to me-e, I kept it still while in the jail."

Now something to think about: the beginning of the Habanera--"l'amour", the L'a on the main second beat. After hearing it so many times, one doesn't question anymore the strangeness of accenting the first syllable. It sounds more natural when Carmen sings it over the chorus with the accent on the 2nd beat.

ZB
(Now, if I can only get my French informant to comment. N, are you here readiing this board???)

[Lilas Pastia]

Even though he is attempting to do the composer's bidding? Would you rather he ignored the pp injunction and just belted the note out?

Speaking of that final rising scale to a pp high Bb, Carreras manages it pretty well on Karajan II, though, when I heard him sing it in the theatre, he settled for a much less dangerous mf.

Most tenors can't manage that note. Those who have the chops for the meatier parts of the role eschew the written score and take it either forte or at best, fine it down quickly at the end. It is treacherous and quite ugly when not well done. Domingo shows how it should be done in terms of marrying golden tone and verbal expressivity  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75S3fS2N6k  , but note how shakily hit is that b flat. He barely manages not to crack it. If there was a Thill or a Vanzo excerpt available somewhere I think we'd have the answer.

[zamyrabyrd]

Most tenors can't manage that note. Those who have the chops for the meatier parts of the role eschew the written score and take it either forte or at best, fine it down quickly at the end. It is treacherous and quite ugly when not well done. Domingo shows how it should be done in terms of marrying golden tone and verbal expressivity  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75S3fS2N6k  , but note how shakily hit is that b flat. He barely manages not to crack it. If there was a Thill or a Vanzo excerpt available somewhere I think we'd have the answer.

And what about the high B in the Seguidilla that usually come out as a shriek and/or off pitch--an unkind trick to put it at the end and after those mouthfuls of words on 16th notes. If the conductor is merciful, he will take it at a reasonable speed so at least Don Jose can understand she is saying.

I'm amazed at the varying accents one can find in Carmen. Sometimes it can sound like a different language, even "gypsy argot" as Mike mentioned. Baltza in the Seguidilla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-W-3Ig4nKk&mode=related&search=

Domingo is really the Latin lover in the above quoted clip. In the following I don't find a lot of chemistry between the two but at least Berganza's singing was more than competent and their accents more or less homogenous with one another. After all, the opera is set in Spain!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQCuwu6xyG0&mode=related&search=

ZB

[beclemund]

This particular Carmen production has me intrigued:



Anyone familiar with it?

[MishaK]

And very timely. Having the same production on TV (5x in May) would put me off going to see it live.

From Mezzo's site:

Bizet's Carmen
Opera (180 mins), director: Don Kent
Composer: Georges Bizet
Direction: Daniel Barenboim
Staging: Martin Kusej
Orchestra: Statskapelle de Berlin
With Rolando Vilazon, Marina Domashenko, Alexander Vinogradov, Norah Amsellem
Production: Euroarts

"Daniel Barenboim, the director of the Berlin Staatsoper, presides over this December 2004 reprise of Bizet's Carmen, staged by Martil Kusej from Austria. The Russian mezzo soprano Marina Domashenko, who played the title role in Verona and New York, once again incarnates the torrid bohemian, the archetype of the ardent and passionate woman. Her partner is the young Mexican tenor Rolando Villazón, who has received wide acclaim as well as the most prestigious awards for his performances over the past few years. A true lyric star, Villazón charms audiences with his dazzling charisma, his rich timbre that borders on a baritone, and his sharp musicality..."

About the latter, the high Bb in "La fleur" sounded precisely like a baritone trying to reach into the tenor register. Too bad he didn't try to float it instead. But if anything, belting it out shows true tenor grit.

The live performances received outstanding reviews in teh German press. Didn't see this though.

And I wonder what scale she is singing in, a perfect example of flattening due to air pressure. I really can't stand the "potatoes in the throat" style of Slavic singing. It would have been nice to hear more of Kleiber but the orchestra was simply upstaged by the jingling and clanging.

That's not really a "Slavic style", it's the fact that Russian doesn't have any 'clean' vowels. She sounds that way because she can't speak otehr languages without her native accent. Take a Czech, Croat or Serb or other Slav whose native language has 'clean' vowels like Italian and you don't have the problem.

[zamyrabyrd]

That's not really a "Slavic style", it's the fact that Russian doesn't have any 'clean' vowels. She sounds that way because she can't speak otehr languages without her native accent. Take a Czech, Croat or Serb or other Slav whose native language has 'clean' vowels like Italian and you don't have the problem.

It was a lucky break then that my "Russian" teacher also spoke Yiddish. (Otherwise we couldn't communicate. I knew some German and his cousin also helped to translate.) Now, his teachers studied in Europe before the Revolution, so his style was informed by Bel Canto rather than Otchi Chornye.

But really, it's not just the vowels. Some Russians manage to overcome their speech patterns just like some native English speakers. And I do think it is a style, a kind of emoting through the sound rather than carried on it.

ZB

[Maciek]

And I do think it is a style, a kind of emoting through the sound rather than carried on it.

But is it really "Slavic" or only "Russian"? And do all Russians "have" it??

[DarkAngel]

Please discuss your favorite Carmen CD version or DVD versions...........

Carmen has stood the test of time as one of the most beloved operas of all time and a favorite of mine, I have several full CD versions and a few DVD versions always intersted in adding more for this work, almost every conductor has tried his hand at this.........what are your all time favorites and why?

[Tsaraslondon]

DarkAngel,

I think you'll find that I and several others have already done this at the beginning of this topic.

[DarkAngel]

DarkAngel,

I think you'll find that I and several others have already done this at the beginning of this topic.

OK thanks for finding that............the topic listing of "carmen!" does not come up when you do a "carmen" search