Historically Speaking .. was Classical music ever 'mainstream'?

[bassio]

Thinking about it .. look at all the famous composers of the past:

Bach .. worked for the Margrave in Kothen?
Haydn .. for the Esterhazi family?
Handel .. for a royal family in England ?
Mozart .. for the Emperor of Austria?
Beethoven .. for Prince/Count whoever?
Chopin .. in salons of aristocracy?

So my question is: given the above, do you think the masses back then listened to classical music? Was it mainstream, like pop nowadays?

Or was classical music only mainstream for the percentage of people who liked it, even back then (just as it is nowadays).

What do you think?
Are there any historical facts or clues?

I apologize if this is an overly academical/historical question, but I am curious to discuss this with you.

[The new erato]

It was mainstream for the audiences it was written for and had the means to play, perform or listen to it. Remenber that a significant part of the population had little access to music. Saw somewhere that at the time of Beethoven, 25% af Vienna population were the target group for  "classical" music (they would have called it contemporary).

[12tone.]

Correct me if I'm wrong but...


Even Strauss and all his waltzes.  I wouldn't think the everyday person went to balls and waltzes.  I mean look:



Some people might make jokes about his waltzes but there's no way a normal person back there could afford to go let alone the getup that would suit the place.

[karlhenning]

There were venues where people danced to Strauss waltzes, which were within affordability of the sub-rich.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, notice that the composers that you name all lived during a certain historical period. And to be a bit nitpicky, Beethoven worked for Beethoven. After 1781, Mozart worked for Mozart, too, even though he had a sinecure as the "Imperial Chamber composer".

There was a period from perhaps 1815 to 1900 when classical music was as mainstream as it was ever going to be. It was at least middle class rather than being restricted to the upper classes. A huge number of people had instruments in their homes (mainly pianos) and bought the latest and greatest sheet music to play for themselves and their friends. It was a mainstay of courtship, for example. But to be strictly accurate, even the middle class wasn't the majority of the population, so what was mainstream for them still wasn't as "popular" as folk and other novelty musics.

Most people only ever got to hear "good" music in church. And of course, that was pretty mainstream in those days...



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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (2 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 47 Sonata #19 in e for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuet

[karlhenning]

Hoy, Gurn! YHM 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hoy, Gurn! YHM 

Done and done.



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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (2 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 05 Sonata #8 in A for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Presto

[bassio]

Well, notice that the composers that you name all lived during a certain historical period. And to be a bit nitpicky, Beethoven worked for Beethoven. After 1781, Mozart worked for Mozart, too, even though he had a sinecure as the "Imperial Chamber composer".

There was a period from perhaps 1815 to 1900 when classical music was as mainstream as it was ever going to be. It was at least middle class rather than being restricted to the upper classes. A huge number of people had instruments in their homes (mainly pianos) and bought the latest and greatest sheet music to play for themselves and their friends. It was a mainstay of courtship, for example. But to be strictly accurate, even the middle class wasn't the majority of the population, so what was mainstream for them still wasn't as "popular" as folk and other novelty musics.

Most people only ever got to hear "good" music in church. And of course, that was pretty mainstream in those days...



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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (2 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 47 Sonata #19 in e for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuet

Nice thought about the church, slipped of my mind (but was it restricted to church music?)

A huge number of people had instruments in their homes (mainly pianos) and bought the latest and greatest sheet music to play for themselves and their friends.

But instruments at home correspond to records and CDs nowadays, and this does not mean that everyone plays classical music nowadays on their CDS. Similarly we cannot assume that everyone back then played classical music on their instruments.

There was a period from perhaps 1815 to 1900 when classical music was as mainstream as it was ever going to be.

True but could have this been largely related to the personalities of this particular era. I assume that the popularity of classical music markedly increased during that century due to the emergence of "interesting" performers: and I mean Paganini and Liszt, and their followers.

But to be strictly accurate, even the middle class wasn't the majority of the population, so what was mainstream for them still wasn't as "popular" as folk and other novelty musics.

It seems difficult to determine, but ultimately I would have to agree with you on that. Because their seems to be a notion that classical music was "music of the past" that had its heyday, but it seems to me that it was only accessible for its target audience. Therefore, one can assume that in our age, classical music is more popular than ever given the easy medium of recordings and mp3s, something which was not available to old folks who could not afford instruments or buying sheet music back then.

[Gurn Blanston]

Nice thought about the church, slipped of my mind (but was it restricted to church music?)

Music played in church was pretty broad based. One needn't think of it only as masses, if that's what you mean. Oratorios were performed in churches in some countries, and even the services themselves contained sinfonias and sonatas.

But instruments at home correspond to records and CDs nowadays, and this does not mean that everyone plays classical music nowadays on their CDS. Similarly we cannot assume that everyone back then played classical music on their instruments.

Actually, you CAN assume with some degree of confidence that what we call "classical" music was very commonly played at home. Chamber music, accompanied sonatas, piano transcriptions of symphonies and other big works, arias and Lieder, lots of 4 hand piano music, all of those were in the classical idiom. No doubt some played "Chopsticks", too...   BTW, the #1 selling piece of sheet music in the 19th century was Hummel's Piano Quintet in Eb...

True but could have this been largely related to the personalities of this particular era. I assume that the popularity of classical music markedly increased during that century due to the emergence of "interesting" performers: and I mean Paganini and Liszt, and their followers.

The rising middle class and nouveau riche didn't wait for the Age of the Virtuoso to take over the music scene, they already had it by then. However, the virtuosi added greatly to the forming of taste, and broadening the base of music lovers.

It seems difficult to determine, but ultimately I would have to agree with you on that. Because their seems to be a notion that classical music was "music of the past" that had its heyday, but it seems to me that it was only accessible for its target audience. Therefore, one can assume that in our age, classical music is more popular than ever given the easy medium of recordings and mp3s, something which was not available to old folks who could not afford instruments or buying sheet music back then.

Yes, it is the "music of the past" for US, it wasn't for them.  lot of the big composers, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms etc. were contemporaries, not distant memories. And they also didn't play or listen much to "old" music either. They wanted new music and they got it.

As for whether "classical" music is even more widespread now than it was then, my own opinion is that there are a lot more people listen to it now than did then, but the reason for that may well be access, as you say by pointing out the media of today. There is far more variety available today than there was then, so the appeal is there for so many more people. As an example, my interest is in obscure composers of the Classical Era, and I can get as much of their music as I can afford, which even 30 years ago few if any people could say. So there is actually a renaissance going on, far from the death predicted and lamented by so many current pundits. IMO, most of the crepe hangers are suffering from Cranio-rectal Inversion Syndrome... 


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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (3 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 14 Sonata #16 in D for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Menuet

[bhodges]

Actually, you CAN assume with some degree of confidence that what we call "classical" music was very commonly played at home. Chamber music, accompanied sonatas, piano transcriptions of symphonies and other big works, arias and Lieder, lots of 4 hand piano music, all of those were in the classical idiom. No doubt some played "Chopsticks", too...   BTW, the #1 selling piece of sheet music in the 19th century was Hummel's Piano Quintet in Eb...

I have seen this phenomenon mentioned a number of times in the last few years, often in discussions about music education (or rather, lack of).  People want to blame the educational system, and rightly so, but lack of music performance at home seems an equally valid reason.  Few people do this any more.

As for whether "classical" music is even more widespread now than it was then, my own opinion is that there are a lot more people listen to it now than did then, but the reason for that may well be access, as you say by pointing out the media of today. There is far more variety available today than there was then, so the appeal is there for so many more people. As an example, my interest is in obscure composers of the Classical Era, and I can get as much of their music as I can afford, which even 30 years ago few if any people could say. So there is actually a renaissance going on, far from the death predicted and lamented by so many current pundits. IMO, most of the crepe hangers are suffering from Cranio-rectal Inversion Syndrome... 

I agree: today's access to classical music is more widespread than ever, thanks to the Internet, radio and the still-viable-for-the-moment recordings market.  And this includes music from all periods, not just contemporary works.  It actually annoys me lately that people see a decline in classical music, when if anything, the availability has exploded.  There is more music available at this minute--never mind new recordings coming out tomorrow, next week, or next month--to keep a listener occupied for decades.

--Bruce

[paulb]

CM is pretty much eletist, high class, the romantics will never die in maintstream classical groupies.
Which is why i seek the underground CM.  Elliott Carter, Pettersson, Schnittke. I'd say the 3 second viennese greats are also  underground.
I promised someone over at amazon board that i would give Mahler another chance, due to an impropriety and offensive comment I made ona   topic, "Who is the greatest 20th C symphonist,Sibelius or Mahler..I went and said something foolish about both composers in realtion to the journey into CM. Wish me luck on Mahlers syms 5-9

[Gurn Blanston]

CM is pretty much eletist, high class, the romantics will never die in maintstream classical groupies.
Which is why i seek the underground CM.  Elliott Carter, Pettersson, Schnittke. I'd say the 3 second viennese greats are also  underground.
I promised someone over at amazon board that i would give Mahler another chance, due to an impropriety and offensive comment I made ona   topic, "Who is the greatest 20th C symphonist,Sibelius or Mahler..I went and said something foolish about both composers in realtion to the journey into CM. Wish me luck on Mahlers syms 5-9

Exactly the point, paulb, there is even something for YOUR taste! I personally disagree about the elitism though. I am as far as you can get from being an elitist, and for that matter, so are you.

Don't worry a bit if you come up empty on Mahler. I did, and I don't care one way or the other. That's another nice aspect of the availability of so much music today, there is something to appeal to everyone. I like nothing that you like, and you like very little that I like. And we're both happy.



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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (4 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Menuet

[Gurn Blanston]

I have seen this phenomenon mentioned a number of times in the last few years, often in discussions about music education (or rather, lack of).  People want to blame the educational system, and rightly so, but lack of music performance at home seems an equally valid reason.  Few people do this any more.

I attribute my love of music in general, not just classical, to the fact that we had a piano at home when I was growing up, and lots of people who could play it (not me, sadly ). There is nothing that equals live music, even played by amateurs, for developing a love of music in a young person. I can't remember the exact figure, and am too lazy to look it up, but there were thousands of pianos in the homes of the Viennese middle class.



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Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (4 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Menuet

[bhodges]

Don't worry a bit if you come up empty on Mahler. I did, and I don't care one way or the other. That's another nice aspect of the availability of so much music today, there is something to appeal to everyone. I like nothing that you like, and you like very little that I like. And we're both happy.

Agree here, too.  As long as you have actually listened to a given composer--and I mean really given his or her work a fair chance--I firmly believe you can cross off any composer from your list, including Mahler, Beethoven, Wagner, or anyone else.  There are just too many different voices out there to worry about not liking one.

--Bruce

[Valentino]

Norwegian violinist Ole Bull sold small flasks with his used bathwater to admiresses. That was in Paris.

Do you wanna be a rock n'roll star?

[Sergeant Rock]

CM is pretty much eletist, high class, the romantics will never die in maintstream classical groupies.
Which is why i seek the underground CM.  Elliott Carter, Pettersson, Schnittke. I'd say the 3 second viennese greats are also  underground.
I promised someone over at amazon board that i would give Mahler another chance, due to an impropriety and offensive comment I made ona   topic, "Who is the greatest 20th C symphonist,Sibelius or Mahler..I went and said something foolish about both composers in realtion to the journey into CM. Wish me luck on Mahlers syms 5-9

Well, Paul, I'm sure you've heard the first 30 seconds of each symphony by now. What's your verdict? 

Sarge

[Brian]

I would actually argue that classical music is more "mainstream" these days than people acknowledge. This is primarily due to movies: for every movie with a crappy soundtrack of fluffball atmospheric pieces and tinkly piano solos, there are films which call for the construction of elaborate symphonic works. I'd say that one of the most popular bits of music from ANY genre in the last decade is the soundtrack of "Lord of the Rings." I personally didn't like it, but a great many folks my age loved the score from that trilogy. A music major friend of mine actually bought a performance score of "Sweeney Todd: Demon Barber of Fleet Street" to analyze the contrapuntal passages with more care. Mainstream film-viewers may not know that that music has anything in common with "classical" music - and even most of us would argue over whether it qualifies as classical - but there's no doubting the enthusiasm there. And many household names from the world of the soundtrack are talented composers whose music can stand well without the context of film - in older days Steiner, Waxman and Korngold; now people like John Williams.

In addition a more pernicious facet of contemporary culture - or at least, that's how it's perceived - is even closer to making classical styles "mainstream." I'm thinking of video games; Bioshock, strategy games like Civilization (which included Brahms' Third Symphony and Adams' Tromba Lontana in its latest edition)*, and especially the Final Fantasy series. A music major friend of mine specializes in video game music, and startled me with a piano clip from a Japanese game written specially - and brilliantly - in the style of Rachmaninov. Granted, the average player doesn't know they're listening to faux Rachmaninov, but I would still contend that they are listening to and, in most cases, genuinely enjoying well-constructed classical music.

--
*Also several of Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. On a recent visit to a Civ4 internet forum, I was shocked to find multiple threads, each containing well over 25 posts, of gamers who were wondering where they could find more Dvorak because they loved his music so much!

[Symphonien]

Well, Paul, I'm sure you've heard the first 30 seconds of each symphony by now. What's your verdict? 

The opening 30 seconds of Symphonies 5-9 are all quite good actually. In fact, now that I think about it, all of Mahler's symphonies generally have great openings!

But whether or not Paul is prepared to listen to the rest is his choice.

[Symphonien]

I'd say that one of the most popular bits of music from ANY genre in the last decade is the soundtrack of "Lord of the Rings." I personally didn't like it, but a great many folks my age loved the score from that trilogy.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the main theme from the Lord of the Rings soundtrack sounds very similar to the theme played by the brass near the end of the first movement of Sibelius's 3rd Symphony? Ever since I first heard Sibelius's 3rd, it's been constantly bugging me...

[Brian]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the main theme from the Lord of the Rings soundtrack sounds very similar to the theme played by the brass near the end of the first movement of Sibelius's 3rd Symphony? Ever since I first heard Sibelius's 3rd, it's been constantly bugging me...

Sibelius was such a plagiarist.