why do some composers dismiss other composers?

[paulb]

Your ears only listen to 30 second clips.

Yeah that all it would take for me to determine where i place minimalism.
But as i said many times , I have kicked the clip habit long ago. ...ahh Ok I like any addictive takes the swig now and then. 
I use Youtube now, you get more bang-for-the-clip.

[paulb]

Look I want to be fair in all of this. Obviously what most late 20th C avant garde composers create has to do with musical expression. the issues which Carter hits on has to do with the fact that minimalists wish their style to be graded and included along inside the classical genre.
When this happens do expect a  reaction from Elliott Carter with a  denouncing cry of "Death" and from me "the plague".
How most avant garde late 20th C works itself into modern culture is open to speculation and discussion. But lets keep things in highest perspective when dealing with a art form such as classical music. I don't wish to appear rancorous or obstinate, although i guess some here may say I'm being pigheaded about the whole matter.
When in fact all i am doing is trying to delineate what is high art from other forms representing  substratified expression in music.

[karlhenning]

Look I want to be fair in all of this.

Well, this won't do it, Paul:

Yeah that all it would take for me to determine where i place minimalism.

[Ephemerid]

Elliott Carter was spot on, most late 20th C music has nothing at all to do with classical genre...

To repeat myself: "Well, needless to say, I don't think anyone can cite a composer's personal dislikes or likes to prove that some other composer is somehow inferior or superior.  Composers have different agendas than listeners..."

I don't wish to appear rancorous or obstinate, although i guess some here may say I'm being pigheaded about the whole matter.

You are being pigheaded about the whole matter.  LOL

Its one thing to say you don't like minimalism, its quite another to simply dismiss it as "sub-classical" or whatever.  You can come up with whatever pseudo-profound statements all you want and try to justify it with some incoherent pretentious ideology to dress up your prejudices, but I don't think anyone here is fooled by it except yourself. 

There's a lot of different classical music out there & I'm thankful it isn't all the same-- there's a lot to choose from.  Some stuff you can warm up to, and some not so much, but your own subjective tastes don't make objective reality. 

[paulb]

To repeat myself: "Well, needless to say, I don't think anyone can cite a composer's personal dislikes or likes to prove that some other composer is somehow inferior or superior.  Composers have different agendas than listeners..."
You are being pigheaded about the whole matter.  LOL

Its one thing to say you don't like minimalism, its quite another to simply dismiss it as "sub-classical" or whatever.  You can come up with whatever pseudo-profound statements all you want and try to justify it with some incoherent pretentious ideology to dress up your prejudices, but I don't think anyone here is fooled by it except yourself. 

There's a lot of different classical music out there & I'm thankful it isn't all the same-- there's a lot to choose from.  Some stuff you can warm up to, and some not so much, but your own subjective tastes don't make objective reality. 

Ephemerid throws the knock down punch
Iconoclasts are never understood, always have to play the  outcast.

But minimalism is not even sub classical, Its has zero to do with classical.
If you and others wish to believe minimalism and much other late 20th C avant garde has something to do with classical music, its your free will to take that position. As for me I hold staunch to my beliefs.
I apologize to any who favor this line of music in their personal belief that minimalism and much other late 20th C music falls into a category which has the widely known title as Classical Music
thats your opinion and i can accept it. My opinion is different and we have to live with each others beliefs without the insults and snides please.
At least i show respect to members here, you seem to have gone off into a rant about how mistaken i appear to be in my personal opinion.
Just who are you GMG gestapo police
Chill out man, its only a  expressed opinion, disagree all you wish , but with decency please.

[Lethevich]

That's because Elliott Carter would be quick to be shitty towards Ned Rorem. I don't know if Carter has publically said anything nasty about Rorem, although I bet he's said plenty in private.

Carter, by the way, is not immune to ridiculous statements about other composers. "Minimalism equals death". I mean, really. That's about as asinine a statement as one can make. Of course he has a right to his opinion, as do we all. But for gosh sakes, that's just stupid.

Fair point, well said

[paulb]

You are being pigheaded about the whole matter.  LOL

Hey Josh, Got your PM
Yes I did miss the LOL part.
Whadda expect from a pighead, nose in the mud

Glad to know you let me get away with my ...rants..
Guy that tagged my as a  iconoclast, now calls me the "crazy iconoclast". I'd prefer "zany" to crazy 

Well I do go overboard at times. I think I;'ve cleared my head, lets get back to the more important, the music, and less about our insignificant  personal idioscyncracies

When i read what one great composer comments on another equally great, ina   positive or critical way, I find it more amusing and not so serious.
Anyone know what Shostakovich said about his various meetings with Prokofiev. As i recall that was something amusing. I guess i could look that up in one of my books on Shostakovich, but if have that handy please post.
Grant, those days in the USSR were not good times, and no reason for any jovial greetings. But Shostakovich just couldn't get on any terms with Prokofiev, if i recall correctly.

[Kullervo]

To repeat myself: "Well, needless to say, I don't think anyone can cite a composer's personal dislikes or likes to prove that some other composer is somehow inferior or superior.  Composers have different agendas than listeners..."
You are being pigheaded about the whole matter.  LOL

Its one thing to say you don't like minimalism, its quite another to simply dismiss it as "sub-classical" or whatever.  You can come up with whatever pseudo-profound statements all you want and try to justify it with some incoherent pretentious ideology to dress up your prejudices, but I don't think anyone here is fooled by it except yourself. 

There's a lot of different classical music out there & I'm thankful it isn't all the same-- there's a lot to choose from.  Some stuff you can warm up to, and some not so much, but your own subjective tastes don't make objective reality. 

Amen.

[karlhenning]

Glad to know you let me get away with my ...rants..
Guy that tagged my as a  iconoclast, now calls me the "crazy iconoclast". I'd prefer "zany" to crazy 

Well I do go overboard at times. . . .

Sure, we let you get away with them, Paul.  But your rants don't attain to the state of iconoclasm;  you just really like certain composers, and for no artistic reason, you just use that enthusiasm as a cudgel against other composers.

[MN Dave]

I officially dismiss this thread.  0:)

[paulb]

I officially dismiss this thread.  0:)

Not until we find out how Shostakovich felt about his comrade Prokofiev. As i recall there was something humorous in what Shostakovich said about the other great's personality quirks.


Karl, you rascal , uncovered my plotings 

[Kullervo]

IIRC, Prokofiev would be discussing the sonata form in one of his symphonies, and DSCH would say something about the weather.

[karlhenning]

IIRC, Prokofiev would be discussing the sonata form in one of his symphonies, and DSCH would say something about the weather.

I think I remember that, too, Corey.

Paul, I think this was a question of two artists being on something of a different wavelength. I don't think that "dismissal" enters the picture.

[paulb]

I think I remember that, too, Corey.

Paul, I think this was a question of two artists being on something of a different wavelength. I don't think that "dismissal" enters the picture.

Yes  there was no illwill of one toward the other. Just vaguely recall how Shostakovich did not find his encounters with Prokofiev as a  pleasant afternoon tea times. I think Shostakovich was more than willing to meet Prokofiev half way, but was not to be.

[bassio]

Yes  there was no illwill of one toward the other. Just vaguely recall how Shostakovich did not find his encounters with Prokofiev as a  pleasant afternoon tea times. I think Shostakovich was more than willing to meet Prokofiev half way, but was not to be.

illwill?

look..


Guess who is the third! 

Now who knows how the relation goes between Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff? 

[paulb]

Just looked its Khachaturian.

Prokofiev was well known to be such an odd fellow

But as i say composers are exempt from all faults, due to their nature of their creativity.
Of course provided they actually produce good fruits.