About movements

[12tone.]

I'll try this topic in the main discussion forum now...see what happens. 

Had no response in the beginner's forum 

So anyways, some help with movements and how they work would be appreciated!


Some questions:


- What is the idea behind a 'movement'?  How have ideas changed from Bach's time to today?

- Number of movements: What happened in Mozart's time that only allowed for 3-4 mvts. whereas now we can have up to 10+?

- What about all that follows the first mvt?  How are the second, third and forth movements related to the first?  Are they connected?  Or is every mvt supposed to be on it's own?

[Morigan]

I can answer to some of these questions...

The idea of movements as we known them probably came at some point in the Baroque era. I'm thinking of the most common form of orchestral music composed during that time, i.e. the dance suites. They were all a succession of various dances, most often with an overture, encompassing minuets, allemandes, courantes, gigues, etc.

At the end of the Baroque Era, composers such as C.P.E. Bach started composing "symphonies", large-scale instrumental works in three movements, as the italian style dicted. Mozart's first group of symphonies have only three movements.

It is largely considered that the "inventor" of the symphony in four movements as we know it was no other than "Papa" Haydn, who added a dance-like movement after the slow second movement and the lively finale. Haydn invented many of the classical forms : the string quartet, the sonata form (two contasting themes exposed, developed and transformed). Haydn's symphonies are pretty much all in the same structure :

First movement: sonata form, allegro or vivace  (it became fashionable, later in the classical period, to start the symphony with a short slow introduction)
Second movement: slow, often a set of variations or a romanza
Third movement: dance; minuetto, trio, minuetto is the classical model
Fourth movement: sonata form, allegro or vivace

Now, as you mentioned it, some symphonies have over 4 movements. This thing started with the Romantics who decided they were tired of the old classical mold and wanted to do something new. They decided to break the classical rules and to do whatever they want with the form, basically. They added movements and changed the order of the movement types (Beethoven's 9th is the best example of an "expanded" classical style symphony).

I encourage you to look up everything on Wikipedia. I'm sure you'll find enough info about musical structures on there!

[12tone.]

Thanks for that! 

[jochanaan]

...(Beethoven's 9th is the best example of an "expanded" classical style symphony)...

Aside from some early experiments by Mozart, J.C. Bach and others, it was Beethoven who re-started the tradition of linking movements.  As you remember, the last two movements of B5 are played without pause, while the last three movements of the Pastoral--the first five-movement Symphony I know of (there may have been others)--are linked.

And while Beethoven's Ninth was the first symphony in which the dance and the slow movement are switched, Mozart and Haydn had both made the switch in some of their chamber music.

[Shrunk]

If you haven't seen this website, it might be worth a look:

http://library.thinkquest.org/22673/