lowest and highest-pitched instruments in the orchestra

Started by XB-70 Valkyrie, February 09, 2008, 11:59:34 AM

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karlhenning

Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 20, 2008, 06:10:05 PM
. . . the electric guitar, which can go down to a rumble when you hit the low E string and put the whammy bar down to what they call "slack".

A slacker with a whammy bar? Why, that's a fine how-d'ye-do!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 09:59:39 AM
I was about to say, "three ledger lines below the staff," but I'll have to wait until I get home tonight to check my score. The low B (in German nomenclature H), however, definitely occurs in Wozzeck, Act Three Scene Two. This is the scene where Wozzeck murders Marie and Berg calls it an "Invention on a Note," which in this case is - B.

I went through the score of the Berg Op. 6 twice and could not find a low A for the basses. Perhaps Mr. Forever is thinking of my example from Wozzeck.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

M forever

It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).

Anyway, it's been a looooooong time that I played the 3 pieces but I thought I remembered that low A clearly. But I could be mistaken. There are at least 2 different versions or editions of the pieces though, so maybe it only occurs in one of these. Or I am wrong after all. But I could swear there is a note lower than the B ("H" in German) there somewhere in one of Berg's works. Or was it in one of Schönberg's? Hmm... I do remember specifically that I played a piece from the era once and it necessitated tuning the 5th string down. Sorry, I don't have many scores and none of these, so I can't look for that myself.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name.

I know.

Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).

As Verdi's Grand Inquisitor replies to King Philip, "Forse!" (Or "Peut-être!" if you prefer the original French.)
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PMIt's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name.

Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 06:27:51 PMI know.

And never you forget it.

QuoteM is not a person, neither the third nor the first. M is a state of being, elevated, removed, elusive, forever.

Thus sayeth the Lord.

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

greg

Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 05:12:59 PM
I went through the score of the Berg Op. 6 twice and could not find a low A for the basses. Perhaps Mr. Forever is thinking of my example from Wozzeck.
me, too....... must be Wozzeck then- although i don't have the orchestra score to that, so i couldn't check.

paul

Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).

Anyway, it's been a looooooong time that I played the 3 pieces but I thought I remembered that low A clearly. But I could be mistaken. There are at least 2 different versions or editions of the pieces though, so maybe it only occurs in one of these. Or I am wrong after all. But I could swear there is a note lower than the B ("H" in German) there somewhere in one of Berg's works. Or was it in one of Schönberg's? Hmm... I do remember specifically that I played a piece from the era once and it necessitated tuning the 5th string down. Sorry, I don't have many scores and none of these, so I can't look for that myself.


I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good! It could be a printing error. I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good! It could be a printing error. I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!

No doubt you mean the very last note in 6, which could have been easily taken by the cembalo player at sounding pitch. But what is normal practice here if a bass is used? do they just shift the last note up an octave?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

M forever

Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good!

Depends on the instrument. If it is big enough, it can sound good.

Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!

Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: M forever on June 20, 2008, 10:01:56 PM
Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.

Not that I necessarily expect you to read every post in a discussion, any more than I expect Paul to believe two of us who have already said there's no low A in the Berg op. 6, but here's the passage I already identified in the post above:
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

paul

Quote from: M forever on June 20, 2008, 10:01:56 PM
Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.

It's number 6 and I'm well aware.

Sforzando, in later editions that I've looked at the last five notes are up an octave in the bass part, but most groups opt out of using a bass in this one. It's probably for the better, the first movement is a killer to play because of how repetitive it is.

M forever

Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 06:11:59 AM
in later editions that I've looked at the last five notes are up an octave in the bass part, but most groups opt out of using a bass in this one. It's probably for the better, the first movement is a killer to play because of how repetitive it is.

Huh? Should our criterion for what and how we play music be if it tires some people to play it or not? The concerti are all relatively short anyway, no big deal at all in comparison to works like Bach's passions or the Christmas oratorio where the bass plays almost continuously for a very long time, or some stuff like Mahler 2 or some of the more massive operas. Should we play all these without basses from now on because some bass players can't cut it?

paul

Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 01:30:14 PM
Huh? Should our criterion for what and how we play music be if it tires some people to play it or not? The concerti are all relatively short anyway, no big deal at all in comparison to works like Bach's passions or the Christmas oratorio where the bass plays almost continuously for a very long time, or some stuff like Mahler 2 or some of the more massive operas. Should we play all these without basses from now on because some bass players can't cut it?

You should stop reading everything so seriously. Of course that is not what I am saying.


paul

By not using a bass in a performance, the bass player is spared playing the part (I should actually mention the middle of the second movement has a quite beautiful continuo part for a moment). Said in a light hearted, ha-ha manner. Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part can be. A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.

M forever

Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
By not using a bass in a performance, the bass player is spared playing the part (I should actually mention the middle of the second movement has a quite beautiful continuo part for a moment). Said in a light hearted, ha-ha manner. Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part is. A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.

Why would that be a good thing? This is great music and fun to play. More fun to play than to just sit there and watch others play.

Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part can be.

The bass parts in none of these pieces are particularly repetitive, and they are far from being "minimal". They are really taxing to play. That was my point. I don't think that should matter - either people can play them then they can participate, or not, then they can go home.

paul

Do you ever get bored picking fights over such trivial matters with strangers on the internet? You seem to do this in every thread on this board.

M forever

This is not a fight. I am just tring to better understand your point and I am giving my opinions in return. Why are you getting aggressive now?

jochanaan

Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
...A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.
Say what?  I see six parts in the above-given score page, and according to the program notes by Karl Geiringer on my LP Brandenburg set with the Chamber Orchestra of Basel, a violone is specifically indicated in the instrumentation given in Bach's original manuscript.  However, from some of the things I've read, I've gotten the impression that bass viols, or rather contrabass viols, from that time could have anywhere from three to six strings-- Perhaps M can enlighten us as to how true that is...

And a challenging part like this is more likely to draw a good instrumentalist in than scare him/her away.  We tend to enjoy mastering challenging parts.  I may complain about having no rests in Beethoven's Ninth, but the music is so compelling I'm willing to suffer exhaustion doing it. :D
Imagination + discipline = creativity

greg

Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
This is not a fight. I am just tring to better understand your point and I am giving my opinions in return. Why are you getting aggressive now?


Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 02:03:10 PM
Why would that be a good thing? This is great music and fun to play. More fun to play than to just sit there and watch others play.

The bass parts in none of these pieces are particularly repetitive, and they are far from being "minimal". They are really taxing to play. That was my point. I don't think that should matter - either people can play them then they can participate, or not, then they can go home.
It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.



Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good!
Of course it can! Especially with a bunch of other low-tuned instruments- huge rumbles can sound EEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVILLLLLLLLLLL !!!! >:D >:D >:D