lowest and highest-pitched instruments in the orchestra

[M forever]

You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"?

Yes, I can see how asking someone "why" is a sign of being annoyed. 

[Brian]

It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.

Why is 'why' such a bad question?

Obligatory smileys so you know I'm not irritated: 

[Monsieur Croche]

It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.

Why? Don't you see how unbearably absurd that would be? The mere thought of M forever smiling made my blood run cold! 0:)

[greg]

Well, after all, sharks and dragons both don't have the ability to smile.

[mn dave]

Well, after all, sharks and dragons both don't have the ability to smile.

[lukeottevanger]

Just to revive the old basses-tuning-down discussion, I'm aware of occasions on which the basses are asked to tune down for a low B, but I've never seen anything like this, until now - a piece in which half the basses tune their whole instrument a fourth below usual for the whole piece!  I'm not sure how truly necessary it is, mind you, nor how practicable - M can enlighten us here. This is Bantock's Hebridean Symphony, anyway:

[drogulus]

It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).

     

[lukeottevanger]

[M forever]

Just to revive the old basses-tuning-down discussion, I'm aware of occasions on which the basses are asked to tune down for a low B, but I've never seen anything like this, until now - a piece in which half the basses tune their whole instrument a fourth below usual for the whole piece!  I'm not sure how truly necessary it is, mind you, nor how practicable - M can enlighten us here. This is Bantock's Hebridean Symphony, anyway:

That's nonsense. It doesn't work. If you tune the strings down that much, they will be very slack and have no sound, maybe even lie on the fingerboard. It should be possible to *move* the strings up, D string to replace the G, the A the D, etc, and then add an H string. I don't know when that was written, but earlier in the 20th century, actual H strings were rarely made and hard to get, so sometimes they used piano strings (!) to get a string which is thick and strong enough to keep the pitch and produce a good sound rather than a farting noise, but my old bass teacher told me they were extremely hard to play, as were gut H strings, so they were really happy when steel strings (with a gut core and steel wound around them) became available.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Bantock's Hebridean Symphony dates from 1915. On Luke's score example it says: MCMXX (1920).

[Szykneij]

Well, if this sample is any indication of what the Bass II part is for the entire piece, it wouldn't really matter how the instruments were tuned.   

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, if this sample is any indication of what the Bass II part is for the entire piece, it wouldn't really matter how the instruments were tuned.

Your logic is remorseless. 

[lukeottevanger]

...It should be possible to *move* the strings up, D string to replace the G, the A the D, etc, and then add an H string....

I'm of the opinion that this must be what Bantock meant: he was too consumate a professional not to know that strings can't be slackened to the extent otherwise implied. Possibly in restringing four string instruments downwards like this he was trying to find a solution to a paucity of five-string basses - but you, with your knowledge of the history of such things, would know how likely that is more than I would. I also note that he says 'the basses should be tuned....', not 'the basses should be retuned....'. This itself tends to imply restringing more than retuning the existing strings.

[Szykneij]

Luke, could you possibly post a section of the score where the low basses are actually playing? I'm curious to see if Bantock merely has them providing pedal tones or has them playing moving parts.

[lukeottevanger]

Luke, could you possibly post a section of the score where the low basses are actually playing? I'm curious to see if Bantock merely has them providing pedal tones or has them playing moving parts.

Well, I just looked through the whole score and this is rather curious - the lower basses do occasionally venture below the normal E, but rarely - and unless I've missed something, which is very likely indeed as I was scrolling quite fast, there isn't a low B in there! Low C is the lowest I saw....    Mostly, however, they are doubling the upper part - which is odd in itself if one thinks about it, and I suggest that Bantock may not have thought this through as much as he should have done! In fact I may even retract my earlier post where I said he was 'too consummate a professional to.....'  Again, M will know better than I would, but I image that a passage like this is hard hard enough on an ordinary bass, let alone one with it's top string replaced by one a fourth lower. And though this is the most extreme I saw, it's not unusual in type....

[M forever]

It still makes more sense to tune the lowest string to H because the fingering is easier and more logical than when it is on C (because then all strings are fourths apart).
The high passages in the example would indeed be extremely difficult and unrewarding to play on an instrument with no G string. One would have to climb up very far on the D string and the pizzicato doesn't necessarily sound good there. I don't think Bantock really knew what he was doing. There are visionary and challenging orchestrations which are difficult to play but make sense and good effect, and then there is amateurish writing. Like this. But it doesn't matter anyway, because that composer is rarely ever performed, even in England.

[M forever]

I watched that in the movie theater a few weeks ago - in awesome 3D! That was during a little classic 3D films festival in a theater here in Boston. Actually, my boss and me had set up the projection equipment for that (this movie was released in a 3D process where you have two projectors running in parallel, one for the left and one for the right eye, and polarized light filters, so while you still have to wear polarized glasses, it looks much better than most other 3D processes and is in color; we achieved perfect synchronization by driving both projectors with a master and two slave frequency inverters).

[Ddillon]

The lowest note of an instrument is defined by the physics of the instrument, ie the tubing length and bore. As such, the contrabassoon cannot play lower than an A or B flat. The lowest open note (no valves pressed) tuba is the bottom C on the piano. Most orchestral tubas are pitched in C. Of course by pressing valves, the pitch lowers. By depressing all 5 or 6 valves the pitch drops about an octave depending on the math of the valves. Thus many orchestral tubas have notes as low as the C below the bottom of the piano. I make no judgment about the quality of the sounds since that was not the question

[(poco) Sforzando]

The lowest note of an instrument is defined by the physics of the instrument, ie the tubing length and bore. As such, the contrabassoon cannot play lower than an A or B flat. The lowest open note (no valves pressed) tuba is the bottom C on the piano. Most orchestral tubas are pitched in C. Of course by pressing valves, the pitch lowers. By depressing all 5 or 6 valves the pitch drops about an octave depending on the math of the valves. Thus many orchestral tubas have notes as low as the C below the bottom of the piano. I make no judgment about the quality of the sounds since that was not the question

Good comment. How close does that low C (16 Hz) come to the threshold of audibility?

[jochanaan]

Good comment. How close does that low C (16 Hz) come to the threshold of audibility?

For most folks, that fundamental pitch is right on the edge if not below audibility.  However, there are harmonics and overtones present in the sound of all musical instruments (except possibly hand chimes that produce a near-sine wave) that render the sound entirely audible even if your physical hearing cannot pick up the low fundamental.