Is Bach a Great Composer?

[(poco) Sforzando]

There are very few composers whom i consider "great". It's not a term i like to throw around a lot.

C'mon, Josquin. What happened to your sense of humor? 

[Ten thumbs]

I heard it. It's rubbish. Clumsy, sterile and artificial. I have a total of three piano discs by Fanny Mendelssohn plus some leader and a Piano Trio and most of it it's pretty average if not down right amateurish. They sound like student works. 

Your comments cast serious doubts on your musical knowledge and discrimination. They read like the words of a student.

[Josquin des Prez]

Your comments cast serious doubts on your musical knowledge and discrimination.

Says the man who thinks a non-entity like Fanny Mendelssohn is a greater artist then Bach.

[Josquin des Prez]

C'mon, Josquin. What happened to your sense of humor? 

It was taken away by the revisionists. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Your comments cast serious doubts on your musical knowledge and discrimination. They read like the words of a student.

Oh, I don't know about that. I am not expressing an opinion on Fanny myself as I haven't heard any of her music. But from what I've seen of Josquin, he takes an interest in Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, Berg, Ligeti, etc., and has expressed as well a healthy disdain for Power Orchestral Orgasmic Percussive Rock. That seems like a fairly discriminating attitude to me, and as for Fanny, the simple fact is that hardly anyone has taken an interest in her. In 2008 it's a little late in the game to play the anti-feminist card, and if she were truly remarkable it would be reasonable to expect more performers to have taken up her cause. It hasn't happened.

[Ten thumbs]

Says the man who thinks a non-entity like Fanny Mendelssohn is a greater artist then Bach.

Indeed I do not. Neither have I ever implied such a thing. As this topic is about Bach, I will say that Fanny was an ardent admirer of his music and knew much of it off by heart (vouched for by Gounod). I support her view that Bach was a great composer wholeheartedly. She was a thoroughly trained musician and composer and it does not do you justice to make sweeping statements about her music that you cannot possibly justify in any way. To call her a non-entity really destroys any credibility you ever had.

[Ten thumbs]

Josquin
I do not like to offend and I apologise.
However:
Fanny Mendelssohn was one of the top pianists of her age. The others included Liszt, Chopin, her brother and Clara Schumann.
She was a conductor and promoter of in-house concerts that gained an international reputation. Here works by Bach and Beethoven were regularly performed and she did far more to introduce the intelligentsia to Bach than Felix ever did (yes, that is what this thread is about!).
She was renowned for her vast knowledge of all matters musical and had an insatiable appetite for news of new compositions.
So leaving aside her compositions, she was hardly a non-entity.
As for her own works, she was always extreme in her self-criticism and I feel on the whole that her judgement is more valuable than your own.
Oh, and if you want a small weapon in return, it is little known that Fanny was a hunchback. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Josquin
I do not like to offend and I apologise.
However:
Fanny Mendelssohn was one of the top pianists of her age. The others included Liszt, Chopin, her brother and Clara Schumann.
She was a conductor and promoter of in-house concerts that gained an international reputation. Here works by Bach and Beethoven were regularly performed and she did far more to introduce the intelligentsia to Bach than Felix ever did (yes, that is what this thread is about!).
She was renowned for her vast knowledge of all matters musical and had an insatiable appetite for news of new compositions.
So leaving aside her compositions, she was hardly a non-entity.
As for her own works, she was always extreme in her self-criticism and I feel on the whole that her judgement is more valuable than your own.
Oh, and if you want a small weapon in return, it is little known that Fanny was a hunchback. 

Clearly Josquin was referring solely to her compositions. No matter how extreme she may have been in her self-criticism, that does not obligate anyone here to accept her own evaluation.

I have become curious to look for some of her work now, however.

I know the grandfather Moses Mendelssohn was also a hunchback. Was the condition congenital?

[Ten thumbs]

Clearly Josquin was referring solely to her compositions. No matter how extreme she may have been in her self-criticism, that does not obligate anyone here to accept her own evaluation.

I have become curious to look for some of her work now, however.

I know the grandfather Moses Mendelssohn was also a hunchback. Was the condition congenital?

Yes, the condition was congenital although in Fanny's case it was not too severe, one shoulder being higher than the other. She also inherited her grandfather's exceptionally high intelligence. No one need accept another's evaluation except that criticism should be based on scholarship and genuine analysis rather than prejudice and shallow opinion. Given the former I think you will find that her music passes the test very well, and yes, it does owe something to Bach!

[Josquin des Prez]

except that criticism should be based on scholarship and genuine analysis

Let me guess, it isn't genuine unless it extols the greatness of Fanny Mendelssohn, right?

[quintett op.57]

There are very few composers whom i consider "great". It's not a term i like to throw around a lot.

Does it mean you need to be sure of his greatness to call a composer "great".
Or does it mean there are really only a few great composers?
How many? Who?

Don't care about my precedent message, as english is not my native language, I was mistaken in my understanding of the expression you used.

[lukeottevanger]

I have become curious to look for some of her work now, however.

I'm speaking as a completely unbiased witness here, who has never had a reason to say a word for or against Fanny Mendelssohn before. I downloaded some scores of hers a few days ago (various piano pieces) and was surprised, given the praise she is sometimes showered with, at the amateurishness, or perhaps lack of sophistication, of their appearance - lots of big bold block triads but little or no contrapuntal contrast to leaven it. Compared with her brother's Lieder ohne Worte, for instance, they come up short in terms of subtlety and inventiveness of figuration and in the inner details which make his works continually interesting. Not the worst I've seen composed around this time, but certainly far from the best. I'm happy to concede, though, that the pieces I've seen may not be indicative of her music in general. 

For sfz's perusal, I've attached a copy of a page which I think fairly representative - there are pages which look worse than this, and one or two which look a little better. But I want to emphasize - I feel a fraud pretending at evaluation of a composer based on examination of only a dozen or so pieces which may well not be her best. So I offer all this only FWIW.... 

[Ten thumbs]

Let me guess, it isn't genuine unless it extols the greatness of Fanny Mendelssohn, right?

Not at all. I only ask that it be based on established principles. I assume you must have studied music at some time and you could refer back to your textbooks. I think you will find there ample proof that Bach was a great composer.

[Ten thumbs]

I'm speaking as a completely unbiased witness here, who has never had a reason to say a word for or against Fanny Mendelssohn before. I downloaded some scores of hers a few days ago (various piano pieces) and was surprised, given the praise she is sometimes showered with, at the amateurishness, or perhaps lack of sophistication, of their appearance - lots of big bold block triads but little or no contrapuntal contrast to leaven it. Compared with her brother's Lieder ohne Worte, for instance, they come up short in terms of subtlety and inventiveness of figuration and in the inner details which make his works continually interesting. Not the worst I've seen composed around this time, but certainly far from the best. I'm happy to concede, though, that the pieces I've seen may not be indicative of her music in general. 

For sfz's perusal, I've attached a copy of a page which I think fairly representative - there are pages which look worse than this, and one or two which look a little better. But I want to emphasize - I feel a fraud pretending at evaluation of a composer based on examination of only a dozen or so pieces which may well not be her best. So I offer all this only FWIW.... 

Interesting, but you could do the same with Beethoven.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Interesting, but you could do the same with Beethoven.

Yes, you could. Fanny obviously has nothing to worry about.

[lukeottevanger]

Interesting, but you could do the same with Beethoven.

I don't think you could. Of course it is possible to find a less inspired page in any composer, Beethoven not excluded, but is it really possible to repeat the exercise I carried out with Fanny Mendelssohn for LBV - IOW take a dozen or so Beethoven pieces at random  - and find them almost entirely devoid of that extra spark which I find lacking in the Fanny Mendelssohn pieces? I somehow doubt it.

Sfz's Beethoven score examples are well taken - there are superficial gestural similarities to some of the FM example I posted, but it is the differences that are everything. The Beethoven has so much going on, motivically, harmonically, texturally, rhythmically.....in contrast the FM is very bare indeed.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I don't think you could. Of course it is possible to find a less inspired page in any composer, Beethoven not excluded, but is it really possible to repeat the exercise I carried out with Fanny Mendelssohn for LBV - IOW take a dozen or so Beethoven pieces at random  - and find them almost entirely devoid of that extra spark which I find lacking in the Fanny Mendelssohn pieces? I somehow doubt it.

Sfz's Beethoven score examples are well taken - there are superficial gestural similarities to some of the FM example I posted, but it is the differences that are everything. The Beethoven has so much going on, motivically, harmonically, texturally, rhythmically.....in contrast the FM is very bare indeed.

I would appreciate it if Luke provided links to the scores he downloaded. I don't mind spending a little time with Fanny if I don't have to shell out any money for the privilege. But based on what I've seen and read so far, I haven't yet found anything to write home about.

[lukeottevanger]

YHM

[Josquin des Prez]

Not at all. I only ask that it be based on established principles.

The same established principles employed by luke, which you promptly refused? Not that it matters either way. This is music that we are talking about. If i cannot use my ears to formulate some form of criticism than what's the point? 

[Ten thumbs]

We are supposed to be talking about Bach but since you are goading me:
The passage that Sforzando quotes is from Villa Medicis. He gives the bridge passage that leads back into the main theme. This is designed to bring the music down from the giddy heights of the previous section - con moto - poco stretto - and then on the page itself: sempre accelerando - in other words it is very fast. The block chords you complain about are there to provide the grandeur that the subject requires. These methods are often employed in classical music, even by Beethoven, whom I'm sure we agree was a much greater composer. I cannot believe that an amateur at that time would be bold enough to write music like this. This is not one of my favorite pieces. It has a certain Lisztian feel to it.
The piece that follows, ' La Serenata', is much more subtle; one could almost call it sophisticated and it has a very catchy melody that goes down well in my experience. The last piece in this Lienau publication is quite individual with a dynamic figuration that I have found nowhere else in the repertoire - playing it correctly at speed is a tour de force.
I would be less impressed if she had imitated either the St Matthew Passion, which she knew inside out, or the Beethoven sonatas, which she played from memory. Great works stand. they cannot be recreated. One has to move on.
Just because we revere the great - such as Bach and Beethoven - that does not mean we should ignore the achievements of other composers. I find your comments condescending and without any real substance. You do not like this music because you have decided not to, although I appreciate that Josquin has not come to terms with the Romantic ethos.