Is Bach a Great Composer?

[(poco) Sforzando]

But Mozart and Beethoven lived exactly to the point in time so ordained. they completed their life fully completely. i have no idea what you ae talking about *only IF they had more yrs*.

So Bach is well recognized by the main herds of classicphiles. So what does this prove to us in 2008? That some people do not want to change, make evolutions in their musical sensibilities? Are the musical valuation system of these Bachians , so cast in stone that when along comes new composers, they can't seem to pull the sword from that stone?
Music that is great has to carry the living values of the consciousness of a  particular generation. What my great grand father may have valued as *the greatest* may not apply to my enviornment 100+ yrs later.

So why do you take an interest in Mozart? Remember, he's well recognized by all the brainwashed sheep of classicphiles, and you better stop liking him 'cause he doesn't apply to your enviornment 100+ yrs later.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I may explore some Handel, as the face looks interesting. I only know his Water music and found it delightful, though that was yrs ago, not sure at the moment.

You won't last 5 seconds.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well Handel was a German free of musical constipation, which is why on the whole his music is far better than Bach's or Vivaldi's, by whichever criteria you may wish to judge.

May I ask you a simple question? What earthly difference would it make if you were but of noble birth?

[paulb]

Here's the quote by the great Nietzsche
http://books.google.com/books?id=AQrnD9WtcvIC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=nietzsche+says+german+composers+constipated&source=web&ots=X5kNVJt_nJ&sig=Rgf46FKCwItMywe8xcAjKWMkhSE

[paulb]

So why do you take an interest in Mozart? Remember, he's well recognized by all the brainwashed sheep of classicphiles, and you better stop liking him 'cause he doesn't apply to your enviornment 100+ yrs later.

Mozart is eternal. And i do mean that literally. How do i know?
God told me

[karlhenning]

Ah yes, the Divine Revelation theory of Musicology 

[Don]

I have what is considered by all the Bachians the finest recording of Bach's major orchestral, Art Of Fuge, Brandenburgs, Orch suites, various concertos, the harpischord concertos barrowed from Vivaldi.
Its the 6 cd set by the french label Accord, featuring Karl Ristenpart and his all srat cast Chamber Orch of The Saar.
had it on LP 25 yrs ago, now have the cd set.

All the Bachians?  Where do you come up with this nonsense?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mozart is eternal. And i do mean that literally. How do i know?
God told me

Is this the same God Corkin is referring to here?

Then there is all this crap about 'he was writing for God..' Crap, crap, crap. For example JE Gardiner is supremely guilty as a Bach cultist, he comes out with this kind of gushing fawning nonsense all the time.

Geez, you guys are so confusing.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Of course this is my opinion, but it is not an uneducated one. I have listened to a lot, and made an effort to listen especially to what Bach fans regard as his finest music. On the whole however I would say there are a few composers who have shown themselves to be of far more value to the world of art than JS Bach. My argument is not against Bach himself....

So stop right there, before you shoot yourself in both feet. If there is no argument against Bach's music, then there is no argument.

[paulb]

All the Bachians?  Where do you come up with this nonsense?

well at least here is one Bachian who has the highest regard for Ristenpart.
I've heard other recordings of Art Of Fugue, none even come close to Ristenpart and his all star cast.

http://www.jsbach.org/ristenpartworksfororchestra.html

[paulb]

Is this the same God Corkin is referring to here?

Geez, you guys are so confusing.

Just as the Son is the exact substance and image of the Unknown God, so is Mozart a  *son* to Bach.
Light from light.

[Don]

well at least here is one Bachian who has the highest regard for Ristenpart.

So you've backtracked from "all" to "one".  That's par for the course, coming from you.

[paulb]

Of course this is my opinion, but it is not an uneducated one. I have listened to a lot, and made an effort to listen especially to what Bach fans regard as his finest music. On the whole however I would say there are a few composers who have shown themselves to be of far more value to the world of art than JS Bach. My argument is not against Bach himself, he did his job and got paid for it, in between the copious amounts of sex he must have been having. No, my argument is with those who rate Bach above all without any logical or musical justification, and this includes many people in high musical places.

Good post.
Indeed who would even consider refuting the significance and greatness of Bach.
Though when we consider that aspect of music as carrying living values of the highest meanings, then other composers need to enter into that equation.

My friend , who is a  *theologian* would bring in ideas that Bach's *creations* reflect the image of *the divine mind*, IOW the archetype.
In some sense this is true, yet in another sense, the living values for man, this is not so true.

[Rod Corkin]

May I ask you a simple question? What earthly difference would it make if you were but of noble birth?

It is all explained in a topic raised by someone on this very subject at my site.

[karlhenning]

"All explained," on your site?

And it won't survive outside that controlled atmosphere translate here?

No, I didn't think it would 

[bassio]

This is also wrong. Mendelssohn was no more single-handedly responsible for reintroducing Bach than Leonard Bernstein was single-handedly responsible for reintroducing Mahler. Bach died in 1750. Mozart was born in 1756. Beethoven was born in 1770. Mozart's discovery of the motets of Bach in the 1780s was a major watershed in his career. As a young student at the harpsichord, Beethoven's principal course of study was the WTC. The "cult" had already begun, no doubt much to Corkin's and Paulb's consternation.

May you elaborate Sforzando please? Do you mean that Bach was neglected in his lifetime .. and that he started being a "cult" just after he died, when Mozart and Beethoven started studying his music. Maybe you are right.

But notice that Mozart and Beethoven can not be considered as mere "music afficionados". They are professional musicians in their lifetime and hailed as great composers afterwards, and they recieved the best musical education you can probably imagine in their lifetime to reach the status they hold today. As I noted in my comment above, I think Bach of course was known to all professional musicians in all times, but his music was considered old-fashioned in his lifetime and afterwards and was rarely played in musical circles. And your comment that "Mozart's discovery of the motets of Bach in the 1780s was a major watershed in his career" indicates that this was a 'discovery' and that his music was not "established in the repertoire" in his days 

Even after that, for example in Chopin's time, Bach was regarded as "classwork" or mere exercises and I doubt that his works were to be played in recital. I know that Mendelsohn was not single-handedly responsible for renewal of Bach .. but at least he played a part by conducting his Passion in public, which appears to be something that was not common in his day.. to the extent that history recorded that event (if it was that important)!

Anyway, I now think how Mozart may have discovered Bach's music. Isn't it true that Mozart was good friends with CPE Bach? Maybe he introduced some of his father's music to Mozart!

[karlhenning]

Anyway, I now think how Mozart may have discovered Bach's music. Isn't it true that Mozart was good friends with CPE Bach? Maybe he introduced some of his father's music to Mozart!

No, I don't remember these two ever meeting.  While yet a child prodigy beyond trotted around, Mozart met JC Bach in London.  Don't know that 'Old Bach's' music was at all part of any conversation they had.  'The London Bach's' piano concertos, though, made an important impression on young Mozart.

I think that it was the Imperial librarian, Baron von Swieten, who introduced Mozart to 'Old Bach'.

[Rod Corkin]

This is also wrong. Mendelssohn was no more single-handedly responsible for reintroducing Bach than Leonard Bernstein was single-handedly responsible for reintroducing Mahler. Bach died in 1750. Mozart was born in 1756. Beethoven was born in 1770. Mozart's discovery of the motets of Bach in the 1780s was a major watershed in his career. As a young student at the harpsichord, Beethoven's principal course of study was the WTC. The "cult" had already begun, no doubt much to Corkin's and Paulb's consternation.

You think me of all people is unaware of Beethoven's association with Bach? But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today, as is well known Beethoven reserved that honour for Handel. Even if Beethoven had become familiar with Bach's 'lost' music I doubt he would have changed his preference, because the particular things present in Handel that Beethoven was so impressed by are virtually non-existent in Bach's output.

[karlhenning]

You think me of all people is unaware of Beethoven's association with Bach? But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today, as is well known Beethoven reserved that honour for Handel.

While of historical interest, even you must understand that this does not mean anything like that Handel is therefore a "greater" composer than Bach.

[paulb]

You think me of all people is unaware of Beethoven's association with Bach? But Beethoven never rated Bach the supreme composer he is rated today, as is well known Beethoven reserved that honour for Handel. Even if Beethoven had become familiar with Bach's 'lost' music I doubt he would have changed his preference, because the particular things present in Handel that Beethoven was so impressed by are virtually non-existent in Bach's output.

Yes i saw a  quote on a  Handel page about how deeply Beethoven felt about Handel.
This further explains why Mozart and Beethoven were so different.
I feel there is more a  *Bachian presence* in Mozart than in Beethoven.  
but maybe even moreso a  Vivaldian influence on Mozart.