Topic: The death of classical music

[drogulus]

      Is classical music an assault on values or an upholder of values? It's both, but from outside it looks like an assault. The elite will always be critical of mainstream culture, but it must find a way to do this from within what it criticizes or suffer tissue rejection. Conceiving of the question of communication with an audience as a question of rights is a terrible mistake. Do we really need to reiterate what composers have a right to do?

[paulb]

      Is classical music an assault on values or an upholder of values? It's both, but from outside it looks like an assault. The elite will always be critical of mainstream culture, but it must find a way to do this from within what it criticizes or suffer tissue rejection. Conceiving of the question of communication with an audience as a question of rights is a terrible mistake. Do we really need to reiterate what composers have a right to do?

Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks

[Demonic Clarinet]

I'm not sure education really has much to do with it. Even those well-educated in classical-type music, who HAVE heard it, generally aren't interested.

[paulb]

I'm not sure education really has much to do with it. Even those well-educated in classical-type music, who HAVE heard it, generally aren't interested.

  

I kinda know what you are talking about. just from yrs of observation of the musical elite academia attitudes and opinions.
Nothing more than a  hunch, a intuition, but here you  along you come as  a part of The Establishment and blows the whistle

[B_cereus]

I wouldn't put too much hope in this; China is fascinated with a lot of things Western, especially if they make noise and pollute the environment.  But maybe they'll continue to infuse EuroAmerican classical music with their own traditions; now THAT might produce some great new music!  (It's been done before.  Remember Dvorak's symphony "From The New World"? )

I agree with Tsaraslondon. I think there is no doubt that China is seen by the classical music industry as the great untapped market.

It is true that fascination with the West is part of it - but the same was true of Japan in the early 20th century and again in its reincarnation following the second world war. Also, China had a thriving classical music scene before the Communist revolution (the pianist Fou Tsong is a link to that past), and this is now reviving in post-Mao China after decades of repression of what was deemed decadent bourgeois Western culture.

I think that in general, classical music is thriving in the Far East - Japan/China/Korea. Japan is well established, and China is an increasngly important host country for touring classical artists. Also it is striking how many competition finalists. and indeed winners, these days are from those countries.  I am also guessing that tapping the China market is part of the reason for DG's investment in Lang Lang, for example.

[jochanaan]

Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks

I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about.  The great composers have often embraced musical styles that differed greatly from what was commonly accepted.  Beethoven is the prototype here; he seldom felt limited by "what's been done" and insisted on following his own muse even to his own cost.  Fortunately, some of his royal and noble friends were enlightened enough to recognize his genius even when they couldn't understand it.

Dmitri Shostakovich exemplified another way.  When the Stalinist Communist authorities of Soviet Russia clamped down on Soviet musical styles, Shostakovich complied outwardly, yet became a "two-faced" composer.  The music written for public consumption was brash yet musically conservative; but he also wrote a lot of music for himself and a few select friends, and these pieces were much darker and more radical than his "public" music.  Still, even in his "public" music there were often subversive elements that mostly slipped right under the authorities' noses.

[paulb]

I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about.  The great composers have often embraced musical styles that differed greatly from what was commonly accepted.  Beethoven is the prototype here; he seldom felt limited by "what's been done" and insisted on following his own muse even to his own cost.  Fortunately, some of his royal and noble friends were enlightened enough to recognize his genius even when they couldn't understand it.

Dmitri Shostakovich exemplified another way.  When the Stalinist Communist authorities of Soviet Russia clamped down on Soviet musical styles, Shostakovich complied outwardly, yet became a "two-faced" composer.  The music written for public consumption was brash yet musically conservative; but he also wrote a lot of music for himself and a few select friends, and these pieces were much darker and more radical than his "public" music.  Still, even in his "public" music there were often subversive elements that mostly slipped right under the authorities' noses.

Thanks Jochanaan for this enlightening commentary. Amazing how courageous Shostakovich was in the face of a  brutal dictator, and his henchmen who infiltrated the dept of the arts, the censorship.

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.

[Ephemerid]

Thanks Jochanaan for this enlightening commentary. Amazing how courageous Shostakovich was in the face of a  brutal dictator, and his henchmen who infiltrated the dept of the arts, the censorship.

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.

Paul, if you haven't already read it, I think you might enjoy Ian McDonald's biography, The New Shostakovich. 

[Ephemerid]

To add: Just did a quick google on McDonald-- I knew he died quite young, but I didn't know he committed suicide! --or perhaps I had forgotten-- my brain feels like mush today (insomnia)

[jochanaan]

Paul, if you haven't already read it, I think you might enjoy Ian McDonald's biography, The New Shostakovich. 

What is "New" about Mr. McDonald's understanding of Shostakovich?

[marvinbrown]

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.

  Let's see Wagner (financial turmoil, constantly on the run from the law, failed romance), Chopin (dead in his 30s, failed romance, financial troubles), Mozart (dead in his 30s, financial troubles), Schubert (dead in his 30s) Beethoven (deafness, failed romance, family trouble) I think you might be on to something here with the more the suffering the more I tend to like a composer!

  marvin

[Ephemerid]

What is "New" about Mr. McDonald's understanding of Shostakovich?

Well, not so new now, but it uses Volkov's controversial Testimony as a springboard.  The analyses of pieces are a bit overly literal, looking for hidden codes, etc. but there's some interesting biographical information & background about intellectual life in the Soviet Union.  To be taken with several grains of salt.  --Though DSCH's son has supported the basic gist of Volkov's Testimony, I don't guess we'll ever know what he really thought.  Not a loyalist or a dissident, but somewhere in between is what I'm thinking...

Karl has suggested Fay's bio instead, which I have not yet read, though I know its gotten a lot of critical praise...

[drogulus]

Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks

    Composers are trying to establish themselves in the art of music. You make a name by doing something new and by pleasing some audience. These may conflict, especially if you have the idea that they're supposed to. Even if you don't have that idea, doing something new is risky. Audiences don't always want to hear a new work even if it isn't radical. They like their favorites.

   

[jochanaan]

...They like their favorites.

Every favorite was once new.

[drogulus]

I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about. 

    I wish you'd explain it to me.

Every favorite was once new.

    All favorites were born old. 

[jochanaan]

    I wish you'd explain it to me.

On second thought, maybe I was just reading my own values into what you actually said...

    All favorites were born old. 

A popular misconception.

[karlhenning]

Good morning, jochanaan!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Joch:    Every favorite was once new.
Drog:    All favorites were born old. 

Yes and no to both statements. As TS Eliot said in "Tradition and the Individual Talent":
 
“What happens when a new work of art is created is something that happens simultaneously to all the works of art that preceded it.”