Lilburn's Second- more garbage

Started by Sean, February 20, 2008, 08:11:05 AM

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Sean

Good grief, how many Sibelius scores did he have on his desk, it obviously had a substantial surface area: how do these characters have the face to write such drivel? Is the intention to make a kind of perverse virtue of absolute mindless plagiarism? Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup. Who does he think isn't going to recognize this stuff? Why oh why oh why do these people devote their time to such meaninglessnes? They're obviously that empty.

BachQ

Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2008, 08:11:05 AM
Good grief, how many Sibelius scores did he have on his desk, it obviously had a substantial surface area: how do these characters have the face to write such drivel? Is the intention to make a kind of perverse virtue of absolute mindless plagiarism? Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup. Who does he think isn't going to recognize this stuff? Why oh why oh why do these people devote their time to such meaninglessnes? They're obviously that empty.

So ......... what's the final verdict: thumbs up, or thumbs down?

vanessa_zang

Quote from: Dm on February 20, 2008, 08:16:34 AM
So ......... what's the final verdict: thumbs up, or thumbs down?

Doubt Sean is considering the thumb as the digit of choice.

johnQpublic

I haven't listened to the Lilburn in a while but yes there are Sibelian moments (not sure about ever noticing ripped-off quotes however).

Right now I'm listening to Dag Wiren....another candiadte for being too influenced by Sibelius.

So Lilburn, Wiren et al aren't the most original. That places them on a lower tier; however, how adept are they in infusing their own voice into the Sibelius mix. How is their technique? How is their melodic, harmonic and orchestrational ear? These are the things to listen for when handling second-tier composers. Some are worth ocassional hearings; a few not.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2008, 08:11:05 AM
Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup.

This sounds like a lot fun! I enjoy playing "Spot the Influence." Thanks for the recommendation, Sean.  ;)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sean

I'm very enthusiastic about tonality and the re-exploration of its resources but Sibelius it would seem quit composing partly because of the rise of the SVS, avoiding bad faith in what he would have been doing if continuing along the same lines. But Lilburn's mind sees no such constraints- it's blithely derivative and unconvincing. The Wiren Serenade is okay though, less pretentious at least.

johnQpublic

The Serenade of Wiren is good fun...I meant to say I'm listening to his 2nd symphony.

some guy

Sean, your fulminations would make more sense were Lilburn still alive.

He's not.

Your fulminations would make more sense had Lilburn kept doing what you accuse him of.

He did not. He went on to write symphony no. 3, and then he switched entirely (with a couple of trifling exceptions) to electroacoustic music, founding a studio in New Zealand, which is still going strong.

Generally I agree with your point. I picked up a bunch of Simpson and then dumped it all because I would rather hear those six or seven measures of Nielsen in the original Nielsen works. And he did that in eleven symphonies, not just one. But he is dead, too, so schtumm. No, better to inveigh, if that's what you're into, against people who are still alive and perpetrating, no? Better yet to encourage the new talents who are genuinely talented.

So now everyone go listen to some Lissa Meridan or John Rimmer or Daniel Behan, why not?

Harry

I consider Lilburn as a fine composer, and so what, that there are large remnants of Sibelius, i like Sibelius too! :)

Harry

Quote from: some guy on February 20, 2008, 09:30:33 AM
Sean, your fulminations would make more sense were Lilburn still alive.

He's not.

Your fulminations would make more sense had Lilburn kept doing what you accuse him of.

He did not. He went on to write symphony no. 3, and then he switched entirely (with a couple of trifling exceptions) to electroacoustic music, founding a studio in New Zealand, which is still going strong.

Generally I agree with your point. I picked up a bunch of Simpson and then dumped it all because I would rather hear those six or seven measures of Nielsen in the original Nielsen works. And he did that in eleven symphonies, not just one. But he is dead, too, so schtumm. No, better to inveigh, if that's what you're into, against people who are still alive and perpetrating, no? Better yet to encourage the new talents who are genuinely talented.

So now everyone go listen to some Lissa Meridan or John Rimmer or Daniel Behan, why not?

I love Simpson too, but I never heard Nielsen in his music, so I did not ditch that.

Ephemerid

For early period Lilburn, I find the Drysdale, Aotearoa and Festive Overtures are quite good. 

I've yet to hear his later electro-acoustic stuff which is miles away from Sibelius.




paulb

#11
there are soooo many 20th C composers that plagiarize Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.
Neither composer is complex (except for VW 4th), and lovely themes sprinkled throughout, so makes it very tempting to just pick a  few ideas from either and start scribbling away til something comes.
Too many composers to name.

Here you can read some nonsense and lies from Bernstein and Thomson on Diamond.
What propaganda. All Diamond did was copy stuff from Vaughan Williams.
Thomson *D is the real deal, no fake pearls here*
what a  lie.

http://www.peermusicclassical.com/composer/composerdetail.cfm?detail=Diamond

paulb

Quote from: Harry on February 20, 2008, 09:35:14 AM
I love Simpson too, but I never heard Nielsen in his music, so I did not ditch that.

Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are  another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.

Harry

Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 10:23:47 AM
Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are  another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.

Shocking! :o ;D

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 10:23:47 AM
Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are  another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.

I have never heard of Nieslen either. He must be really obscure.
I don't like SImpson or Tubin either. They epitomize the saying: I didn't understand it the first time but there is no way I am listening to it the second time.

Arnold is okay. DOn't get me wrong it isn't great music by any stretch of the imagination but at least you admit there is something there.

Mark


longears

Quote from: vanessa_zang on February 20, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
Doubt Sean is considering the thumb as the digit of choice.
Vanessa, how did you come by such mastery of American vernacular?

An imbecile's condemnation is praise indeed!  I must give Lilburn another listen....

paulb

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
I have never heard of Nieslen either. He must be really obscure.
I don't like SImpson or Tubin either. They epitomize the saying: I didn't understand it the first time but there is no way I am listening to it the second time.

Arnold is okay. DOn't get me wrong it isn't great music by any stretch of the imagination but at least you admit there is something there.

This is a  very honest answer. we need more like you on this GMG forum. Straight up, no fooling.
Nieslen is somehat obscure.
But the few fans he does have are extremely fanatical. I tried a  sym set on London, of course the bristish conductor was second rate, still there's not much there, a  hodge podge of sorts.
The 1950's revordings with various swedish conductors is better, but still nothing to make me want to lay out any money.
I heard Arnold and Simpson over at Tulane's ML, can't recall , one is Brucknerian and the other soulds good for film music.

Anyway, nothing that creastes a  desire to won any of their music.
Tubin I've heard clips of, and that was quite enough.

there's dozens of these off beat composers  that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Over the yrs i;'ve tried a  few suggestions based on a  high *WOW* factor, but i came up empty handed, and short in the wallet.
Hey, at least i tried.

We need more like Sean who is willing to put forth a  honest and fair opinion. And yourself.

paulb

Quote from: longears on February 20, 2008, 04:45:27 PM
  I must give Lilburn another listen....

now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.

Szykneij

Nielsen was an accomplished violinist and his chamber works for the instrument are outstanding. I was listening to his Sonata for Violin and Piano (Op. 35), Prelude and Theme with Variations (Op. 48), and Preludio e presto (Op. 52) yesterday. They are challenging pieces to play and great to listen to.
Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige