Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)

[PaulSC]

Argh... Tempt me not. (Too late... no wait, I can resist. I would spend too much time on that when I have to write-write-write. But I reckon K.141, K.380 and maybe K.64 and K.87.

I give outsider chances to K.8, K.132, K.9, K.492 and K.3 to make multiple appearances. K.466 is one of my favorites... but alas, not among the most popular.
K.30, like Haydn's Symphony No.99, ought to be nicknamed (or is nicknamed) "The Cat".

Should mention I forgot to mention Lester, when talking about complete Scarlatti Sonata Collections, but Lester -- despite good sound and many different instruments -- turns out to be a bit boring.

I'm tempted to drop hints, but I don't want to interfere with your need to write-write-write, since I will probably want to read-read-read the results. Anyway, you've done a superb job guessing, considering that what I own isn't entirely representative of the overall recorded catalog.

K.141 — I would have predicted more, but I only have 4
K.380 — BINGO (I've got 5)
K.64 — only 2!
K.87 — BINGO (5)
K.8 — 4
K.132 — only 2!
K.9 (which ought to be nicknamed "The Dog") — 4
K.492 — BINGO (6!, often in the company of K.490 and/or K.491, the latter being one of my favorites)
K.3 — only 3!

The other most represented sonatas in the house are:
K.27 (B minor) — 6
K.513 (C major, Pastorale followed by Presto) — 5
K.545 (B-flat major, Prestissimo beginning with broken thirds) — 5

[Karl Henning]

All in all, well done, Jens!

[prémont]

Should mention I forgot to mention Lester, when talking about complete Scarlatti Sonata Collections, but Lester -- despite good sound and many different instruments -- turns out to be a bit boring.

Yes,(compared to Ross and Belder) Lester is a bit unimaginative.

What about Gilbert Rowland´s integral. I do not know it - any thoughts?

[prémont]

...other most represented sonatas in the house are:
K.27 (B minor) — 6
K.513 (C major, Pastorale followed by Presto) — 5

These are surely the most represented items in my collection, along with K 517 (at least 7 versions), but is the often recorded  K 517 not represented in your collection at all?

[PaulSC]

These are surely the most represented items in my collection, along with K 517 (at least 7 versions), but is the often recorded  K 517 not represented in your collection at all?

It's there, but not at the top, frequency-wise. I've got three recordings: Hantai, Pinnock, and Schiff.

[jlaurson]

These are surely the most represented items in my collection, along with K 517 (at least 7 versions), but is the often recorded  K 517 not represented in your collection at all?

I know nothing about Rowland's Scarlatti, unfortunately.

It might be interesting to see if there are some sonatas that are significantly more popular with harpsichordists over pianists and vice versa.

[prémont]

It might be interesting to see if there are some sonatas that are significantly more popular with harpsichordists over pianists and vice versa.

Yes, I have harboured similar thoughts.

[71 dB]

Stupid question but I never learn if I don't ask:

Are Scarlatti's sonatas REAL sonatas? Do they really fulfill sonata form? I ask this because they are so short. The shortest I have is 1:55 (K. 523) and the longest is 12:34 (K. 402). The average length seems to be less than 5 minutes. To me Scarlatti's sonatas are "just" short pieces rather than sonatas. On the other hand sonata form was only developing at that time and was considerably developed further after Scarlatti (e.g. Beethoven).

Opinions?

[jlaurson]

Stupid question but I never learn if I don't ask:

Are Scarlatti's sonatas REAL sonatas? Do they really fulfill sonata form? I ask this because they are so short. The shortest I have is 1:55 (K. 523) and the longest is 12:34 (K. 402). The average length seems to be less than 5 minutes. To me Scarlatti's sonatas are "just" short pieces rather than sonatas. On the other hand sonata form was only developing at that time and was considerably developed further after Scarlatti (e.g. Beethoven).

Opinions?

They're called that for lack of a better name; Scarlatti certainly didn't name them "Sonatas" himself; several of his earlier published ones were called "Essercizi (per gravicembalo)".

[71 dB]

They are real, and it isn't an opinion.

They're called that for lack of a better name; Scarlatti certainly didn't name them "Sonatas" himself; several of his earlier published ones were called "Essercizi (per gravicembalo)".

   

What jlaurson writes is more or less what I think myself.

[PaulSC]

The term "sonata" has a long history prior to the codification of "sonata form" in the Classical period. Originally, it was a relatively vague designation for instrumental rather than vocal music, and it often referred to instrumental music other than dances, simply because dances had names of their own.

But even in the modern sense of the term, Scarlatti's sonatas can be seen as an interesting step in the evolution of the form. On the one hand, the great majority of them are basically binary forms, consisting of two balanced halves, whereas sonata form is more closely related to rounded binary form, in which the second half is expanded up front by contrasting and potentially developmental material. But on the other hand, in Scarlatti we already find a decisive modulation to a secondary key (most often the dominant in major keys and the relative major and minor keys) with cadential punctuation and often with new thematic material in the new key.

Kirkpatrick notes that the material beyond this turning point within the first half (a point that he calls the "crux"), is often more generic, consisting of scales, arpeggios, and repeated cadential formulas. It therefore has a lot in common with the closing theme or closing theme-group of a modern sonata form.

Of course in the modern sense, the term "sonata" refers to TWO related formal concepts. One is the multi-movement template (fast-slow-fast, or fast-slow-moderate-fast) commonly applied in the composition of large-scale solo keyboard and accompanied instrumental solo works. One might say this is a genre more than a form. The other, known more specifically as sonata-allegro or single-movement-sonata form, is characteristic of the first movement of these and other multi-movement works, but was also used in the design of some slow movements and occasionally finales.

[Que]

Interesting - I'm listening to the Belder traversal of the Scarlatti sonatas and like it a lot. I wonder how they compare to the Ross set. Anyone know?

Based on a couple of discs of the Belder series I tried, I much prefer Scott Ross. But, to make it more confusing: opinions on this are divided on the forum....

Is Belder's Scarlatti too sober, rather wooden and akward, missing that typical rhythmic Neapolitan knack and has Scott Ross just that and is he totally submerged in Scarlatti's musical world with a total command and supreme technique or.... is Belder more reflective and human and is Scott Ross too fast & flashy, glossing over the music?

I leave it to you - I would sample or try the single disc with selections from the Ross edition.

Q

[jlaurson]

Based on a couple of discs of the Belder series I tried, I much prefer Scott Ross. But, to make it more confusing: opinions on this are divided on the forum....

Is Belder's Scarlatti too sober, rather wooden and akward, missing that typical rhythmic Neapolitan knack and has Scott Ross just that and is he totally submerged in Scarlatti's musical world with a total command and supreme technique or.... is Belder more reflective and human and is Scott Ross too fast & flashy, glossing over the music?

I leave it to you - I would sample or try the single disc with selections from the Ross edition.

I have both sets (not that I've surveyed all of it, yet) and like Belder (Ionarts: Some Scarlatti), but take my hat off to Ross.

I've heard the latest nine CDs in the three volumes – 10 to 12 – here discussed, which were all recorded in the Spring of 2007. That's a lot of learning, playing, and recording to do – but still nothing compared to the rush with which Scott Ross recorded his entire cycle in a year and a half. Critical ears will inevitably notice Ross having some less felicitous moments, the kind of which I did not hear in Belder. But Ross, at his best, also plays with the kind of affection and in such an affecting way that the best of Belder in these sets cannot compete.

[Karl Henning]

Most interesting. I've just started tucking into the Ross set...

[Geo Dude]

Fascinating thread here that seems to have been cobbled together from a few separate threads.  There's even a mention of Waylon Jennings!  Right now the only Scarlatti I have on hand is Hantai's first disc, back in the 'wild years' of his youth, but #1 and #3 of the Mirare recordings have been ordered and #2 shall be ordered soon.  I've also placed an order at amazon.ca for the Belder box on the off chance that they ever get it back in stock.  If not, I'll probably eventually grab the Ross box on the market place.  Based on the available material on YouTube both are fine players.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I've got 12 discs' worth of Belder's set, and I won't hear a word against him : )

Incidentally, just listened to disc 4 of the Ross set, and I smiled to hear a fugue . . . I just hadn't thought of Scarlatti and fugue going together.

[Mandryka]

The term "sonata" has a long history prior to the codification of "sonata form" in the Classical period. Originally, it was a relatively vague designation for instrumental rather than vocal music, and it often referred to instrumental music other than dances, simply because dances had names of their own.

But even in the modern sense of the term, Scarlatti's sonatas can be seen as an interesting step in the evolution of the form. On the one hand, the great majority of them are basically binary forms, consisting of two balanced halves, whereas sonata form is more closely related to rounded binary form, in which the second half is expanded up front by contrasting and potentially developmental material. But on the other hand, in Scarlatti we already find a decisive modulation to a secondary key (most often the dominant in major keys and the relative major and minor keys) with cadential punctuation and often with new thematic material in the new key.

Kirkpatrick notes that the material beyond this turning point within the first half (a point that he calls the "crux"), is often more generic, consisting of scales, arpeggios, and repeated cadential formulas. It therefore has a lot in common with the closing theme or closing theme-group of a modern sonata form.

Of course in the modern sense, the term "sonata" refers to TWO related formal concepts. One is the multi-movement template (fast-slow-fast, or fast-slow-moderate-fast) commonly applied in the composition of large-scale solo keyboard and accompanied instrumental solo works. One might say this is a genre more than a form. The other, known more specifically as sonata-allegro or single-movement-sonata form, is characteristic of the first movement of these and other multi-movement works, but was also used in the design of some slow movements and occasionally finales.

Do you the majority of pieces designated by a Kirkpatrick number is binary in form? Or do you mean that the sonatas in fact often come in pairs, made up of two pieces with different K- numbers? (or both or neither  )

I remember I once read that some come in pairs. I've never studied music and I haven't pursued it. But I have been struck sometimes by who some of the consecutive sonatas in Pletnev's CDs seem to go together to make larger pieces, and I've always had it at the back of my mind to explore this further. Hence this post.

By the way I was lurking on this board because I discovered an absolutely glorious Scarlatti sonata for the first time to day, or at least if I had heard it before I'd forgotten: K296

[Karl Henning]

D. Scarlatti — Sonata in G K.455, Allegro — Pieter-Jan Belder
JS Bach — Fuga from the Sonata № 1 in g minor for violin solo, BWV 1001 — Gidon Kremer
D. Scarlatti — Sonata in D K.491, Allegro — Pieter-Jan Belder
JS Bach — Fuga from the Sonata № 2 in a minor for violin solo, BWV 1003 — Gidon Kremer
D. Scarlatti — Sonata in E K.531, Allegro — Scott Ross
JS Bach — Fuga from the Sonata № 3 in C for violin solo, BWV 1005 — Gidon Kremer
D. Scarlatti — Sonata in D K.96, Allegrissimo — Scott Ross

The four Scarlatti sonatas selected here are a not-entirely-private joke; anyone picked up on it?

[jlaurson]

Not all that new, but perhaps not previously linked to: A survey of Tharaud's newish Scarlatti with sound clips comparing him to others... both pianists and harpsichordists:


Original and Happy Freaks: Alexandre Tharaud's Scarlatti

[PaulSC]

Do you the majority of pieces designated by a Kirkpatrick number is binary in form? Or do you mean that the sonatas in fact often come in pairs, made up of two pieces with different K- numbers? (or both or neither  )

I remember I once read that some come in pairs. I've never studied music and I haven't pursued it. But I have been struck sometimes by who some of the consecutive sonatas in Pletnev's CDs seem to go together to make larger pieces, and I've always had it at the back of my mind to explore this further. Hence this post.

A very belated reply...

I meant the former: the great majority of individual Scarlatti sonatas are organized as binary forms. Regarding the pairing of these pieces, some or all of the sonatas are presented this way in the Kirkpatrick edition — sorry to be vague, it's been ages since I've seen it. I don't know if this was simply a novel idea of Kirkpatrick's, or if it follows from some theory that the pairings were intended by the composer. I do know that the earlier Longo edition arranges the sonatas rather arbitrarily into longer suites based on commonality of key. I suspect Longo would not have done this if he had possessed evidence for Kirkpatrick's pairings.