Villa-Lobos Anyone?

[Florestan]

Another suggestion would be to check out the Piano Trios, which I became familiar with about two or three years ago thanks to this marvelous recording:

My favorite chamber music combo! Will investigate.

Let me say that V-L's oeuvre is quite vast, so one of the best things you could is just dive right in.

I guess you're right.

How about the piano concertos, another genre I'm a sucker for? I remember one of the Choros being a piano concerto in all but name, and quite Rachmaninovian too.

[Mirror Image]

My favorite chamber music combo! Will investigate.

I guess you're right.

How about the piano concertos, another genre I'm a sucker for? I remember one of the Choros being a piano concerto in all but name, and quite Rachmaninovian too.

Villa-Lobos' piano concerti aren't too good, IMHO. They could've been so much more, but, IMHO, he had already wrote some of his best work for piano/orchestra in the Chôros and Bachianas Brasileiras series.

[Florestan]

Villa-Lobos' piano concerti aren't too good, IMHO.

Why? What's wrong with them?

[SonicMan46]

Not much activity in this thread unfortunately since my last post, but this seems to be under some people's radars at the moment:

 

Promo video for the box set:

I used to prefer the performances from St. Clair of the symphonies on the CPO label until I really started listening to Karabtchevsky's cycle. The problem with the St. Clair performances now that I've had the opportunity to do an evaluation is he's too controlled in the music. The orchestra used in the St. Clair series, the Stuttgart RSO, are a fine orchestra, but they play this music a bit too precise and they don't really give into much of the wildness that this music requires. Karabtchevsky, of course, is Brazilian and has the São Paulo Symphony Orchestra at his disposal, which know this music inside out. Karabtchevsky also plays the music with the wild abandon that it needs in order for it to make the kind of impact it needs. I've said this before, but I don't feel Villa-Lobos' strongest works are his symphonies, but there is enough good music within these works to make them worthwhile. Symphony No. 10, 'Amerindia' is sprawling work, but it's so enthralling. I also felt Symphonies Nos. 4 & 6 were quite memorable. Anyway, if any of you want to get to know these works (and what fan of V-L's music wouldn't really), then you should definitely pick up the Karabtchevsky cycle on Naxos, especially now that it's been boxed up!

Hi John - thanks for the comments on the newer box set of the V-L Symphonies w/ Karabtchevsky - I own the St. Clair box above and have enjoyed; reviews of some of these releases (attached are 3 each of the Symphonies 3/4 & Symphonies 8,9,11) include some comments of the two different recordings - both received comparable comparisons w/ some preference of one over the other.  I also enjoy the São Paulo SO in the Chorus/Brachianas and prefer listening to those works (or V-L other output) than the Symphonies; BUT, this Naxos set is available on Spotify, so will do some comparative listening.  Dave

[Mirror Image]

Why? What's wrong with them?

I just didn't find them as interesting or colorful as the afore mentioned works.

[Mirror Image]

Hi John - thanks for the comments on the newer box set of the V-L Symphonies w/ Karabtchevsky - I own the St. Clair box above and have enjoyed; reviews of some of these releases (attached are 3 each of the Symphonies 3/4 & Symphonies 8,9,11) include some comments of the two different recordings - both received comparable comparisons w/ some preference of one over the other.  I also enjoy the São Paulo SO in the Chorus/Brachianas and prefer listening to those works (or V-L other output) than the Symphonies; BUT, this Naxos set is available on Spotify, so will do some comparative listening.  Dave

Very cool, Dave. Let me tell you ever since I've started contributing to this thread, you've really been my Villa-Lobos compadre. It's nice to have one those around here. We're in agreement about the symphonies for sure, although as I mentioned, I don't feel my time has been wasted exploring his symphonies --- some of them are just better than others, but that's the way it is with any composer's oeuvre or so it seems.

[vandermolen]

So far, I've greatly enjoyed 3 and 4 (especially the slow movements) and 10. Many more to explore!

[Mirror Image]

So far, I've greatly enjoyed 3 and 4 (especially the slow movements) and 10. Many more to explore!

[Maestro267]

I mean, that might be one of the more fascinating aspects of V-L's career, is how the works that have titles related to past forms seem to be among the more uninspired. As much as I enjoy the symphonies, I do agree that the works that are more "him" lie in cycles such as the Choros and Bachianas Brasileiras. And I also find the numbered piano concertos not among my favourites.

[Mirror Image]

I mean, that might be one of the more fascinating aspects of V-L's career, is how the works that have titles related to past forms seem to be among the more uninspired. As much as I enjoy the symphonies, I do agree that the works that are more "him" lie in cycles such as the Choros and Bachianas Brasileiras. And I also find the numbered piano concertos not among my favourites.

I find Symphony No. 10, 'Ameríndia' to be one of his greatest achievements from an orchestral standpoint. In my mind, this work is up there with any of the larger works in the Chôros or Bachianas Brasileiras series. It took me awhile to wrap my mind around this symphony since it's an hour long, but the Karabtchevsky performance is what solidified the work for me. The other performances I've heard like Ben-Dor and St. Clair are rather tame in comparison. As I mentioned, Villa-Lobos needs to be performed with abandon and Karabtchevsky brings it in this department. I also think his SQs are some of his finest works and I don't find these works short of inspiration at all. In fact, I haven't heard a lot of V-L that I thought lacked inspiration, but we're agreed on the piano concerti, although I would like to hear if those performances could be improved upon, but I won't hold my breath there since it's been quite some time since that Decca cycle with Ortiz has been issued. This sounds like a job for Naxos. I would also love to have another recording of the Violin Sonatas as the recording on Brilliant Classics is very good, but the recording is way too reverberant. It'd be great if Hyperion would record these works, but it doesn't look like it'll happen.

[Symphonic Addict]

Relistening to the glorious 1st Symphony from this splendid set, which has better sonics than the Naxos, above all in symphonies 3 and 4. Extraordinary work, decidedly late-Romantic and with folk-music influences. If you could enjoy a mix, say, between Langgaard and Brazilian rhythms and airs, you could like this piece. Really loved it!!

[SonicMan46]

Now on my V-L collection for some selective listening - have about 40 discs (w/ four 6-8 CD boxes) shown below from my database - so anything new to consider (or replace)?  I've been listening over the last few days to the Choros-Bachianas, String Quartets, and some chamber music - will start in on the Symphonies & Solo Piano.

Looking on Amazon USA, I don't see much need to add or subtract - I'm happy w/ the St. Clair symphony cycle although Karabtchevsky's newer cycle is well regarded - performance and sonics better?  Another violin sonata set but happy w/ the one I already own; also have been eyeing the 3-disc guitar box, but have 2 recordings of stated 'Complete Guitar Recordings', true?  May need to check Spotify for a listen.  Finally, a 'chamber music' CD of works on Naxos - I seemed to have at least half of these on other recordings?  Dave

     

[Mirror Image]

Now on my V-L collection for some selective listening - have about 40 discs (w/ four 6-8 CD boxes) shown below from my database - so anything new to consider (or replace)?  I've been listening over the last few days to the Choros-Bachianas, String Quartets, and some chamber music - will start in on the Symphonies & Solo Piano.

Looking on Amazon USA, I don't see much need to add or subtract - I'm happy w/ the St. Clair symphony cycle although Karabtchevsky's newer cycle is well regarded - performance and sonics better?  Another violin sonata set but happy w/ the one I already own; also have been eyeing the 3-disc guitar box, but have 2 recordings of stated 'Complete Guitar Recordings', true?  May need to check Spotify for a listen.  Finally, a 'chamber music' CD of works on Naxos - I seemed to have at least half of these on other recordings?  Dave

     

The St. Clair cycle strikes me as rhythmically stiff in general, Dave. My opinion a few years ago was in favor of this CPO cycle, but since then I have done side-by-side comparisons with St. Clair and Karabtchevsky and, for me, Karabtchevsky is the clear winner in terms of excitement and just a better general ebb-and-flow, especially rhythmically. If you can ditch the St. Clair and buy the Karabtchevsky (for a decent price), then that would be fantastic. I think you would be more satisfied with it. Plus, Karabtchevsky has the São Paulo Symphony Orchestra, which were used in the Neschling/Minczuk cycle of the Chôros and Bachianas Brasileiras on BIS. They have this music in their blood and there's no denying that the Germans, while they do an admirable job, don't really get the music. The recording of the Violin Sonatas is pretty good, but the balances are off. The piano is more upfront and the violin is more recessed and, while I like the performances, they don't better the recording on Brilliant Classics with Jenny Abel and Roberto Szidon, which does suffer from reverberant fidelity, but there's a certain spirit in these performances that the Naxos recording can't quite match. The Andrea Bissoli box set is fantastic! A must-buy, especially as it contains some works that are difficult to find and some transcriptions/arrangements that can't be found anywhere else. An important set, IMHO. The Chamber Music disc on Naxos with Mobius is excellent as well. You can't go wrong with that recording. I hope this helps you in some way.

[Brian]

What does the Andrea Bissoli set include that would not be included in a complete guitar solo works album (like the two Dave has) plus the guitar concerto? You know a lot more about VL's repertoire than I do.

To me that collection looks pretty thorough in terms of covering the works I know and value. My suggestion to Dave instead would be to look through the other recent Naxos Brazil releases - the brand new Guerra-Peixe CD seems pretty essential, for example (my comments here).

[Mirror Image]

What does the Andrea Bissoli set include that would not be included in a complete guitar solo works album (like the two Dave has) plus the guitar concerto? You know a lot more about VL's repertoire than I do.

To me that collection looks pretty thorough in terms of covering the works I know and value. My suggestion to Dave instead would be to look through the other recent Naxos Brazil releases - the brand new Guerra-Peixe CD seems pretty essential, for example (my comments here).

Well, for starters, it has O papagaio do moleque on it, which has only seen one prior recording with Alfred Heller conducting:



This recording is OOP and the fidelity isn't the greatest (FYI, The Emperor Jones has been recorded by Jan Wagner on Bridge Records to much more successful results --- this was V-L's last ballet).

For a complete listing of all the works included in the Bissoli set, I'll refer you to Presto:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8188059--villa-lobos-complete-guitar-manuscripts

[SonicMan46]

The St. Clair cycle strikes me as rhythmically stiff in general, Dave. My opinion a few years ago was in favor of this CPO cycle, but since then I have done side-by-side comparisons with St. Clair and Karabtchevsky and, for me, Karabtchevsky is the clear winner in terms of excitement and just a better general ebb-and-flow, especially rhythmically. If you can ditch the St. Clair and buy the Karabtchevsky (for a decent price), then that would be fantastic. I think you would be more satisfied with it. Plus, Karabtchevsky has the São Paulo Symphony Orchestra, which were used in the Neschling/Minczuk cycle of the Chôros and Bachianas Brasileiras on BIS. They have this music in their blood and there's no denying that the Germans, while they do an admirable job, don't really get the music....................

What does the Andrea Bissoli set include that would not be included in a complete guitar solo works album (like the two Dave has) plus the guitar concerto? You know a lot more about VL's repertoire than I do.

To me that collection looks pretty thorough in terms of covering the works I know and value. My suggestion to Dave instead would be to look through the other recent Naxos Brazil releases - the brand new Guerra-Peixe CD seems pretty essential, for example (my comments here).

Thanks Guys for the comments.  I know that John prefers the Karabtchevsky recordings w/ the Brazilian orchestra, so I visited Spotify and listen to about 4-5 Symphonies and then to a couple of discs from my St. Clair box - must say that the more recent Naxos sound was better to my ears and the performances seemed more integrated (maybe the redo of the manuscripts?) - I went ahead and ordered the Karabtchevsky box from Amazon USA for $30 USA (shipment 'across the pond' was completely discounted) - will likely cull out the other.

Thanks Brian for your comments on the guitar recordings - believe that I'll just stick w/ my two recordings (although the same works are played, i.e. Suite Populaire, Five Preludes, & Twelve Etudes) - not sure I need the other works but if available will take a listen on Spotify and if the price drops, may change my mind?    Dave

P.S. in my 'symphony comparison' I also looked at a bunch of reviews which are attached mainly for those debating the two boxes and who like to read others' comments.

[Karl Henning]

Now on my V-L collection for some selective listening - have about 40 discs (w/ four 6-8 CD boxes) shown below from my database - so anything new to consider (or replace)?  I've been listening over the last few days to the Choros-Bachianas, String Quartets, and some chamber music - will start in on the Symphonies & Solo Piano.

Looking on Amazon USA, I don't see much need to add or subtract - I'm happy w/ the St. Clair symphony cycle although Karabtchevsky's newer cycle is well regarded - performance and sonics better?  Another violin sonata set but happy w/ the one I already own; also have been eyeing the 3-disc guitar box, but have 2 recordings of stated 'Complete Guitar Recordings', true?  May need to check Spotify for a listen.  Finally, a 'chamber music' CD of works on Naxos - I seemed to have at least half of these on other recordings?  Dave

     

Dave, how do you like the piano concerti?

[Mirror Image]

Thanks Guys for the comments.  I know that John prefers the Karabtchevsky recordings w/ the Brazilian orchestra, so I visited Spotify and listen to about 4-5 Symphonies and then to a couple of discs from my St. Clair box - must say that the more recent Naxos sound was better to my ears and the performances seemed more integrated (maybe the redo of the manuscripts?) - I went ahead and ordered the Karabtchevsky box from Amazon USA for $30 USA (shipment 'across the pond' was completely discounted) - will likely cull out the other.

Thanks Brian for your comments on the guitar recordings - believe that I'll just stick w/ my two recordings (although the same works are played, i.e. Suite Populaire, Five Preludes, & Twelve Etudes) - not sure I need the other works but if available will take a listen on Spotify and if the price drops, may change my mind?    Dave

P.S. in my 'symphony comparison' I also looked at a bunch of reviews which are attached mainly for those debating the two boxes and who like to read others' comments.

Good deal with the Karabtchevsky. It's a fine cycle and will be a welcome addition to your V-L collection, IMHO. Hope you enjoy it.

Dave, how do you like the piano concerti?

You didn't ask me, Karl, but I find the PCs to be mediocre in general. They've got some good ideas here and there, but they don't really hold up that well. Granted, it's been years since I've heard them and there's only one recording of the complete cycle (with Cristina Ortiz and Gómez-Martínez on Decca).

P.S. Dave, on your spreadsheet of the V-L recordings you have listed in your collection, you may want to make the correction to Gómez-Martínez. You have him listed as Gómez-Martínex.

[Karl Henning]

Interesting, John. For the present, I'll content myself with listening through the symphonies.

[SonicMan46]

Good deal with the Karabtchevsky. It's a fine cycle and will be a welcome addition to your V-L collection, IMHO. Hope you enjoy it.

You didn't ask me, Karl, but I find the PCs to be mediocre in general. They've got some good ideas here and there, but they don't really hold up that well. Granted, it's been years since I've heard them and there's only one recording of the complete cycle (with Cristina Ortiz and Gómez-Martínez on Decca).

P.S. Dave, on your spreadsheet of the V-L recordings you have listed in your collection, you may want to make the correction to Gómez-Martínez. You have him listed as Gómez-Martínex.

Hi John - believe that I'll enjoy the Karabtchevsky from my Spotify listening this morning.  Thanks for noticing the spreadsheet typos - I have plenty of those - kind of boring to make mutliple entries so I go fast and don't always double check (and me a medical writer during my career!  )

Karl - not sure that I'd go as far as John on the Piano Concertos comments - V-L started these later in his life (58 y/o for the first one) and probably not that motivated to compose at his best level, just a thought; I'm listening now to PCs 3-5 and am enjoying (would I rather be listening to something else by him - probably) - the writing can be rambling w/ at times weird dynamic shifts (I've attached some reviews - one from Grammophone w/ a cautioned recommendation and one from Amazon, someone I usually like but leaving only a 2*/5* rating); now the Brazilian pianist, Christina Ortiz is wonderful as usual and gives her best to put this music across - my best recommendation is try to stream several of the works and then decide - it's an inexpensive double-Decca.  Dave