Topic: Eduard Tubin (1905-82)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Bax/Myaskovsky sounds about right to me for that movement.I was listening to Lyatoshinsky symphs 2 and 3 in the last couple of days. Reminded me of Tubin.

So, another symphonist to look out for!

But - I'd be interested to know what you make of my, slightly negative, assessment (if you have the time, that is)...

[vandermolen]

So, another symphonist to look out for!

But - I'd be interested to know what you make of my, slightly negative, assessment (if you have the time, that is)...

At work, so a bit rushed. I'll listen to Tubin's 5th Symphony over the weekend and report back (I have three recordings Jarvi, Father and son+the Alba version) I suspect that you would like Lyatoshinsky Symphony 2 and 3, very much in the Tubin/Myaskovsky mould.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

At work, so a bit rushed. I'll listen to Tubin's 5th Symphony over the weekend and report back (I have three recordings Jarvi, Father and son+the Alba version) I suspect that you would like Lyatoshinsky Symphony 2 and 3, very much in the Tubin/Myaskovsky mould.

Take your time, Jeffrey.

Seeing you have three interpretations, I think you could be in a better position to judge the work, as I only have the Järvi père. Still, the outlines of the work are very clear, as is its trajectory. A conductor can't change those, being the parameters within which he/she has to work. Whether differences in tempi, and the moulding of phrases, and the placing of structural accents could change my perception of the work, its quality, its harmonic and melodic substance?....

Johan

P.S. I found an article about Lyatoshinsky et al. I uploaded it to MediFire:

http://www.mediafire.com/?iadjvjjynzs

[Christo]

Right, I'm a big fan of Tubin ever since I accidentally heard his Fourth in a Radio broadcast, back in the early 1980s. His cycle of ten symphonies is among the very best in the 20th century - on equal par with e.g. those by Vaughan Williams, Nielsen, Sibelius, Shosta, Braga Santos.

Both cycles available (Järvi and Volmer) are very fine. And I was lucky enough to attend performances of the Fifth and Sixth here in Utrecht (both times under Volmer) as well as a sort of premiere of the 11th (first part only, finished by Kaljo Raid at the request of Järvi) under Järvi, with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam, somewhere around 1990.

For some inexplicable reason, but Jezetha seems to be offering a clue, I never really came to grips with the Fifth. But I highly enjoy all the others, and especially 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, as well as both violin concertos, the double bass and balailaka concertos, Music for Strings, several 'Estonian' suites, a.s.o.

Btw, did anyone hear the complete Kratt ballet music, released last year by Alba, also under Volmer? (I bought it, but didn't find time to listen, yet).

[vandermolen]

Take your time, Jeffrey.

Seeing you have three interpretations, I think you could be in a better position to judge the work, as I only have the Järvi père. Still, the outlines of the work are very clear, as is its trajectory. A conductor can't change those, being the parameters within which he/she has to work. Whether differences in tempi, and the moulding of phrases, and the placing of structural accents could change my perception of the work, its quality, its harmonic and melodic substance?....

Johan

P.S. I found an article about Lyatoshinsky et al. I uploaded it to MediFire:

http://www.mediafire.com/?iadjvjjynzs

Johan,

Thanks v much for the Lyatoshinsky article which I have printed off to read. Very kind of you.

I listened to Tubin's 5th Symphony this evening (Telarc recording Paavo Jarvi). I enjoyed it. The opening movement is, I agree, not as good as No 4 but I still liked it, especially the climax and ending. The second movement (especially the end) is the heart of the piece. I prefer the older Jarvi's performance as Paavo's is a bit quick (but still good). I will listen to the Volmer again too.

So, I enjoyed it but my fave Tubin symphs are nos 1,2,4 and 10.

[Christo]

In conclusion - the Fourth shows Tubin at his lyrical best, the Sixth at his most violent, and the Fifth sits uncomfortably in the middle...

Your final verdict?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Your final verdict?

No verdict can ever be final in the case of art. But the Fifth - I still don't love it...

[Christo]

No verdict can ever be final in the case of art. But the Fifth - I still don't love it...

`Oh yes it can!' Not in art perhaps, but in life there's much finality - commonly known as death.
The point being, that I've always had the same reservations with the opening of the Fifth, though I never analysed my reservations (as I never discussed Tubin with anyone so far). I always explained them as part of a period of less inspired works, after his escape to Sweden in 1944.

I find not only the Fifth lacking in inspiration, but the Piano Concertino from the same year (1945) as well - a very un-Tubinlike work, imho. Yet, from the late fourties on, he resumes his strength, cumulating in his personal `Sacre', a creative eruption not unlike Vermeulen's Second, the Sixth Symphony.

Btw: I recently discovered some Tubinesque qualities in the Second and especially Third symphonies by Léon Orthel. Did you ever hear his symphonic work? Like also the late Evocazione or the Second Scherzo for orchestra, both available in different recordings.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

`Oh yes it can!' Not in art perhaps, but in life there's much finality - commonly known as death.
The point being, that I've always had the same reservations with the opening of the Fifth, though I never analysed my reservations (as I never discussed Tubin with anyone so far). I always explained them as part of a period of less inspired works, after his escape to Sweden in 1944.

I find not only the Fifth lacking in inspiration, but the Piano Concertino from the same year (1945) as well - a very un-Tubinlike work, imho. Yet, from the late fourties on, he resumes his strength, cumulating in his personal `Sacre', a creative eruption not unlike Vermeulen's Second, the Sixth Symphony.

Btw: I recently discovered some Tubinesque qualities in the Second and especially Third symphonies by Léon Orthel. Did you ever hear his symphonic work? Like also the late Evocazione or the Second Scherzo for orchestra, both available in different recordings.

It's interesting that we share our misgivings about the Fifth. Another Tubin symphony I find rather mechanical (perhaps because he wanted to please the Soviet occupiers of Estonia?!) is his Third. It sounds rather hollow in a socialist-realist way, Shosta minus the irony (if 'irony' it was (another can of worms I won't open)).

Re Orthel - I heard his Piccola Symphonia (if that's the title) almost 30 years ago. I can't remember a thing...

[Dundonnell]

It is a long time since I listened to my collection of Tubin's music! (I have the Neeme Jarvi BIS set.)

Tubin is a composer whose music really does appeal to me-as does most Nordic orchestral music! I DO remember that the 5th symphony was the one which had the least appeal for me. However, all I can remember was that it sounded like a bit of a Prokofiev off-cut without the heroic drama of the first three symphonies(perhaps occasionally marked by a degree of bombast?) or the tragic mien of the last symphonies.

It is so difficult to find the time to go back to play enough of my favourite composers when I keep on adding new CDs to my collection!
Just a few minutes ago the postman brought 6 more(Sir Edward German's 2nd symphony, Cecil Armstrong Gibbs 'Odysseus' Symphony,
a collection of viola music by Hindemith, the same composer's Oratorio 'Das Unaufhorliche', a long deleted EMI CD of music by d'Indy-including his Wallenstein Trilogy, and two piano concertos by Montague Phillips).

Why are there only 24 hours in the day??

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It is a long time since I listened to my collection of Tubin's music! (I have the Neeme Jarvi BIS set.)

Tubin is a composer whose music really does appeal to me-as does most Nordic orchestral music! I DO remember that the 5th symphony was the one which had the least appeal for me. However, all I can remember was that it sounded like a bit of a Prokofiev off-cut without the heroic drama of the first three symphonies(perhaps occasionally marked by a degree of bombast?) or the tragic mien of the last symphonies.

It is so difficult to find the time to go back to play enough of my favourite composers when I keep on adding new CDs to my collection!
Just a few minutes ago the postman brought 6 more(Sir Edward German's 2nd symphony, Cecil Armstrong Gibbs 'Odysseus' Symphony,
a collection of viola music by Hindemith, the same composer's Oratorio 'Das Unaufhorliche', a long deleted EMI CD of music by d'Indy-including his Wallenstein Trilogy, and two piano concertos by Montague Phillips).

Why are there only 24 hours in the day??

A bit off-topic, but - what's Gibbs' 'Westmorland' Symphony like?!

[Dundonnell]

A bit off-topic, but - what's Gibbs' 'Westmorland' Symphony like?!

Very fine indeed! It was inspired by the glorious scenery of the Lake District where Gibbs and his family were refugees during World War Two but is made all the more moving and eloquent by the impact on the composer of the death in action of his son a few months before.

The 'Westmorland' is certainly worth hearing! Gibbs was acknowledged as a bit of a minaturist, almost a 'light music' composer, but the two symphonies I have heard(so far-not listened to 'Odysseus' yet!) demonstrate that he could handle the symphonic form and, I suspect, the 'Westmorland' may be his purely orchestral masterpiece. Anyone who likes Vaughan Williams should take to it!

(Quiz question. Name another symphony inspired by landscape of the Lake District. Answer-Egon Wellesz's lst symphony! He said that the countryside reminded him of his native Styria.)

[Christo]

Just a few minutes ago the postman brought 6 more (... Cecil Armstrong Gibbs 'Odysseus' Symphony ... )

By Juve! I didn't know it has been recorded, only knowing (& cherishing) the Marco Polo CD with his First and Third `Westmorland' - a personal favourite of mine, for the sake of it's entirely beautiful [Auden quote] final movement and for it's deeply moving, humane qualities.

Where, when, whatever, how, and why do we find his Second, the Odysseus? Tell us all, please!

[Dundonnell]

By Juve! I didn't know it has been recorded, only knowing (& cherishing) the Marco Polo CD with his First and Third `Westmorland' - a personal favourite of mine, for the sake of it's entirely beautiful [Auden quote] final movement and for it's deeply moving, humane qualities.

Where, when, whatever, how, and why do we find his Second, the Odysseus? Tell us all, please!

Dutton Epoch CDLX 7201: Susan Gritton(soprano), Mark Stone(baritone), London Oriana Choir and the B.B.C. Concert Orchestra(David Drummond).
Just released.

I get my Dutton CDs from an online company called Presto since-for whatever reason-my usual supplier, MDT, does not appear to sell them. £8.49 plus postage.

Glad to hear someone else likes the 'Westmorland'!

[Lethevich]

I just noticed that there has recently been a full live video of Tubin's 4th uploaded by a US (amateur?) orchestra:

Mvt 1
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/z22-VL9ZScY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/z22-VL9ZScY</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jdoJG15SSgg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jdoJG15SSgg</a>

Mvt 2
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/WdcEjHEFEzU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/WdcEjHEFEzU</a>

Mvt 3
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KC5AyzyH8AQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KC5AyzyH8AQ</a>

Mvt 4
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/upNUXK7Ln8c" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/upNUXK7Ln8c</a>

This work keeps bringing whisps of RVW's 5th into my head. A fine, catchy piece of music. Rather different works, though, of course - despite their very close dates of composition. The Tubin also on occasion reminds me of the fantastical atmosphere of Martinů, for example...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thank for the vids, Sarah. Great piece, the Fourth. Tubin's happiest symphonic creation, I think.

[vandermolen]

Thank for the vids, Sarah. Great piece, the Fourth. Tubin's happiest symphonic creation, I think.

A friend though that Tubin's great Symphony No 4 reminded him of Vaughan Williams's 'A Pastoral Symphony'. Tubin's 4th Symphony is one of my favourites (with No 1,2 and 10). The BIS CD has an interesting cover photo of the composer contemplating stepping in to a partially submerged boat.

[Dundonnell]

A friend though that Tubin's great Symphony No 4 reminded him of Vaughan Williams's 'A Pastoral Symphony'. Tubin's 4th Symphony is one of my favourites (with No 1,2 and 10). The BIS CD has an interesting cover photo of the composer contemplating stepping in to a partially submerged boat.

I doubt if Tubin is actually contemplating stepping into the boat, Jeffrey; certainly not the way he is dressed

[vandermolen]

I doubt if Tubin is actually contemplating stepping into the boat, Jeffrey; certainly not the way he is dressed

You never know with these Estonians Colin 

[Christo]

The BIS CD has an interesting cover photo of the composer contemplating stepping in to a partially submerged boat.

   

                           

Tubin actually fled by boat to Sweden, in 1944, and as an exile had to `burn his ships behind him'.