Eduard Tubin (1905-82)

[Brian]

You did all that in one go?

I listened to no.1... last weekend I think it was. And it was suggested I comment on my experiences, but they'll be old hat. By the time I get through the cycle (using Jarvi), you'll have collected the complete works!

PS Classics Today review of Vollmer specifically didn't like No.1, saying he didn't hold it together as well as Jarvi did. Something to bear in mind.

My employer's NML account (I work at a university) and my quiet desk job afford me the chance to listen to 4-6 hours of music each day, even with nice breaks between. Oh, so that is a serious caveat, that my attention was divided by doing writing, proofreading, clearing up emails, etc.

Your comments are always welcome - you're one of the most insightful commenters on music on GMG (or at least, your comments are the kinds of things I like to read)! And I suspect you will love No. 2...

[Daverz]

PS Classics Today review of Vollmer specifically didn't like No.1, saying he didn't hold it together as well as Jarvi did. Something to bear in mind.

Was it the Hurwitzer?  I think many of our members find it more useful to invert any judgement he publishes.

[Madiel]

Was it the Hurwitzer?  I think many of our members find it more useful to invert any judgement he publishes.

It was, though I think one should be careful of inverting everything. I find it helpful to first ask which period of music history we're dealing with. It's not like he hides his views about small orchestra, for example.

[vandermolen]

I prefer the earlier (1-5) to the later (6-9) symphonies. I also enjoy No.10. I think that the 'Lyrica' (No.4) is one of the best although I think it is closer to Vaughan Williams's 'A Pastoral Symphony' than to his 5th Symphony. Tubin's No.1 is often seen as a kind of outlier but I enjoy it very much. It reminds me of his compatriot Kaljo Raid's First Symphony which I greatly admire.ni do find Tubin's music memorable. No.2 'Legendary' is perhaps the most exciting of all with some epic climaxes. As for the greatest, I would choose 2,3,4 or 5.

[Daverz]

It was, though I think one should be careful of inverting everything. I find it helpful to first ask which period of music history we're dealing with. It's not like he hides his views about small orchestra, for example.

I take him on a case by case basis.  If he fixates on the balance of the tam-tam or on coming up with some clever but sophomoric insult, then I tend to ignore him.

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for your thumbnails, Brian.

[Brian]

No. 6. I may be shaping up as a Tubin Eccentric, because it seems like my reactions are diverging from a lot of people's. No. 5, for instance, seems not to be some people's favorite, but it had a lot to offer for me, and so it goes with No. 6. This 1954 piece seems to finally reflect the influence of real-world events and composers like Shostakovich. Shattering, wild climaxes with lots of stuff going on. Like the previous 5, there's not much in terms of memorable thematic material, and the structure seems to follow the "I'll do whatever I want" principle, but like the best of the previous 5 (2, 4, 5), this is compensated for with memorable episodes, vibrant orchestral colors, and at least some emotional impact.

No. 7. Oh, this has the best opening of any of the symphonies so far. Mysterious, wary, flickering back and forth (like Brahms) from major and minor keys as if it was the easiest thing. This time there are echoes of Prokofiev, particularly in the new "bittersweet" (an overused word but true) atmosphere and the rare, for Tubin, presence of a true slow movement. (Although, he Franckifies it by dropping a scherzo in the middle and then uniting them in counterpoint!) Like Prokofiev's Seventh, this feels less ambitious than its predecessors; it's certainly less loud, and requires a smaller orchestra. An alarming, dissonant march finale completes the impression of a hostile Soviet takeover (Tubin was living in exile when he wrote this one). Certainly not for everybody, but the first movement is my favorite movement of Tubin so far.

No. 8. I'm starting to realize that the things I liked about Tubin 2-4 are gone for good, but he is now correcting several of the things I didn't like about those early symphonies. In paring down his style and pursuing a more unified "autumnal" voice, Tubin requires less complexity in terms of orchestral sound but creates more complexity from the stronger force of his ideas. But on the other hand, these symphonies tip quite heavily into the Nonstop Vague Foreboding/Unease category. And his unwillingness to write a slow movement can get kinda tiring. The climax of the third movement is extremely well-scored, though. None of these symphonies are bad.

Ultimately, 4-6 may be the composer's peak because that's where his early mythic/impressionistic side finally met with his newfound formal rigor.

Enjoyed a lot: 4
Enjoyed plenty: 2, 5, 6, 7
Okay: 3
Meh: 1, 8

[vandermolen]

No. 6. I may be shaping up as a Tubin Eccentric, because it seems like my reactions are diverging from a lot of people's. No. 5, for instance, seems not to be some people's favorite, but it had a lot to offer for me, and so it goes with No. 6. This 1954 piece seems to finally reflect the influence of real-world events and composers like Shostakovich. Shattering, wild climaxes with lots of stuff going on. Like the previous 5, there's not much in terms of memorable thematic material, and the structure seems to follow the "I'll do whatever I want" principle, but like the best of the previous 5 (2, 4, 5), this is compensated for with memorable episodes, vibrant orchestral colors, and at least some emotional impact.

No. 7. Oh, this has the best opening of any of the symphonies so far. Mysterious, wary, flickering back and forth (like Brahms) from major and minor keys as if it was the easiest thing. This time there are echoes of Prokofiev, particularly in the new "bittersweet" (an overused word but true) atmosphere and the rare, for Tubin, presence of a true slow movement. (Although, he Franckifies it by dropping a scherzo in the middle and then uniting them in counterpoint!) Like Prokofiev's Seventh, this feels less ambitious than its predecessors; it's certainly less loud, and requires a smaller orchestra. An alarming, dissonant march finale completes the impression of a hostile Soviet takeover (Tubin was living in exile when he wrote this one). Certainly not for everybody, but the first movement is my favorite movement of Tubin so far.

No. 8. I'm starting to realize that the things I liked about Tubin 2-4 are gone for good, but he is now correcting several of the things I didn't like about those early symphonies. In paring down his style and pursuing a more unified "autumnal" voice, Tubin requires less complexity in terms of orchestral sound but creates more complexity from the stronger force of his ideas. But on the other hand, these symphonies tip quite heavily into the Nonstop Vague Foreboding/Unease category. And his unwillingness to write a slow movement can get kinda tiring. The climax of the third movement is extremely well-scored, though. None of these symphonies are bad.

Ultimately, 4-6 may be the composer's peak because that's where his early mythic/impressionistic side finally met with his newfound formal rigor.

Enjoyed a lot: 4
Enjoyed plenty: 2, 5, 6, 7
Okay: 3
Meh: 1, 8

I look forward to hearing your views on 9 and 10.

[Mirror Image]

I look forward to hearing your views on 9 and 10.

+ 1

[springrite]

Count me as a big fan of #5, but I do understand how it might be problematic for some.

[Brian]

No. 9. Like with Carl Nielsen, the subtitle "Sinfonia semplice" does not mean this is a simple or easy listen! The first movement is a traditional sonata form, so there is that. And Tubin continues his late habit of paring down the scoring, avoiding the batteries of percussion from, e.g., No. 6. His sound-world is getting noticeably more "Nordic," that is, it is gaining the traits one usually associates with Sibelius and the like. (A more "frigid" feel, plaintive winds, reduction in orchestral color for color's sake.)

Having said that, this just isn't my cup of tea. At the quiet ending of No. 9, I was left wondering why the symphony existed, what purpose it served. Another thought: Tubin seems to have completely lost the strong sense of rhythm he had in Nos. 5 and 6. This absence was true of parts of No. 8, as well.

No. 10. This is the only Tubin symphony I'd previously heard, but so long ago that the memory has faded away. There is an interesting, simple horn fanfare which serves to animate some material, but ... mostly this symphony went in one ear, and out the other. Not too many notes on this one, unfortunately. I'm ready for my Tubin journey to be over. There was some good stuff, but none that rose to the level of greatness, and the later years were unkind to this composer both in personal life and musically.

Enjoyed a lot: 4
Enjoyed plenty: 2, 5, 6, 7
Okay: 3
Meh: 1, 8, 10
No, thanks: 9

[vandermolen]

No. 9. Like with Carl Nielsen, the subtitle "Sinfonia semplice" does not mean this is a simple or easy listen! The first movement is a traditional sonata form, so there is that. And Tubin continues his late habit of paring down the scoring, avoiding the batteries of percussion from, e.g., No. 6. His sound-world is getting noticeably more "Nordic," that is, it is gaining the traits one usually associates with Sibelius and the like. (A more "frigid" feel, plaintive winds, reduction in orchestral color for color's sake.)

Having said that, this just isn't my cup of tea. At the quiet ending of No. 9, I was left wondering why the symphony existed, what purpose it served. Another thought: Tubin seems to have completely lost the strong sense of rhythm he had in Nos. 5 and 6. This absence was true of parts of No. 8, as well.

No. 10. This is the only Tubin symphony I'd previously heard, but so long ago that the memory has faded away. There is an interesting, simple horn fanfare which serves to animate some material, but ... mostly this symphony went in one ear, and out the other. Not too many notes on this one, unfortunately. I'm ready for my Tubin journey to be over. There was some good stuff, but none that rose to the level of greatness, and the later years were unkind to this composer both in personal life and musically.

Enjoyed a lot: 4
Enjoyed plenty: 2, 5, 6, 7
Okay: 3
Meh: 1, 8, 10
No, thanks: 9

Thanks for your interesting views. And how about the fragment of Symphony 11? 
I largely agree with you but have a higher opinion of Nos 1, 3 and 10. I have enjoyed reading your verdicts on the Tubin symphonies.

[Scion7]

While I bought a few of his CD's this is a composer I will investigate later in life in more detail.  Too much other exciting music being spun on the ol' Vic right now.

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for your interesting views. And how about the fragment of Symphony 11? 
I largely agree with you but have a higher opinion of Nos 1, 3 and 10. I have enjoyed reading your verdicts on the Tubin symphonies.

FWIW, I am curious especially to hear the Ninth from Brian's back-of-the-envelope reportage.

I know Tubin's name from my two school-years in Tallinn, of course; but I am not certain that I heard any of his music then.

[Karl Henning]

FWIW, I am curious especially to hear the Ninth from Brian's back-of-the-envelope reportage.

I know Tubin's name from my two school-years in Tallinn, of course; but I am not certain that I heard any of his music then.

Well, it's Fate: the BIS singleton with the Ninth also has the Fourth, which is our Brian's pick of the lot. Also an even earlier Toccata, dating from the epoch of independent Baltic States, but at the time when things were hotting up in Germany.

Even on practically pure spec, I am pleased at having pulled this trigger.

[amw]

The only Tubin symphony offhand I remember is No. 5—I have the lot, but the Alba set, not the BIS one. 5 is not an especially attractive work, even a bit demoralising at times, but it's compelling. I'm also curious about No. 9 now, though >.>

Tubin likes using really short little motives instead of actual themes as building blocks, and for me part of the problem is that a lot of those little motives sound pretty similar to one another and are not very striking intervallically. I think the best thing he's done is a big Piano Sonata from the sixties/seventies or thereabouts, which can be heard on a BIS recording, probably

[Karl Henning]

The only Tubin symphony offhand I remember is No. 5—I have the lot, but the Alba set, not the BIS one. 5 is not an especially attractive work, even a bit demoralising at times, but it's compelling.

I've listened to the outer movements of the Fifth on YouTube now (Toomas Vavilov and the Eesti Muusika- ja Teatriakadeemia sümfooniaorkester, so a youth orchestra, and they play their hearts out).  I should probably withhold judgement until I listen to the intervening Andante . . . I agree that it is compelling, but I also find it quite readily attractive . . . and if there be anything demoralizing about it, I'm missing that.

Well, it's Fate: the BIS singleton with the Ninth also has the Fourth, which is our Brian's pick of the lot. Also an even earlier Toccata, dating from the epoch of independent Baltic States, but at the time when things were hotting up in Germany.

Even on practically pure spec, I am pleased at having pulled this trigger.

This has landed, and I have listened to both the Ninth and the Toccata twice, and I like them both very much.  The latter is of course a minor work, but exhibits perhaps the peer of (say) 75% of the playful spikiness of the young Prokofiev. (By which, I don't mean that he is "like Prokofiev, but less.")  The Ninth is a bit episodic, and maybe that aspect is what has disoriented Brian;  but I like all the bits, and I like the way they all hang together.

I've also heard the unfinished Eleventh on YouTube (just the first movement, and orchestrated by another composer).  Energetic, sure-footed, expertly designed.

I really didn't come into this, wanting to buy a set of the symphonies.  But I find myself entertaining the question.

[vandermolen]

I've listened to the outer movements of the Fifth on YouTube now (Toomas Vavilov and the Eesti Muusika- ja Teatriakadeemia sümfooniaorkester, so a youth orchestra, and they play their hearts out).  I should probably withhold judgement until I listen to the intervening Andante . . . I agree that it is compelling, but I also find it quite readily attractive . . . and if there be anything demoralizing about it, I'm missing that.

This has landed, and I have listened to both the Ninth and the Toccata twice, and I like them both very much.  The latter is of course a minor work, but exhibits perhaps the peer of (say) 75% of the playful spikiness of the young Prokofiev. (By which, I don't mean that he is "like Prokofiev, but less.")  The Ninth is a bit episodic, and maybe that aspect is what has disoriented Brian;  but I like all the bits, and I like the way they all hang together.

I've also heard the unfinished Eleventh on YouTube (just the first movement, and orchestrated by another composer).  Energetic, sure-footed, expertly designed.

I really didn't come into this, wanting to buy a set of the symphonies.  But I find myself entertaining the question.

Go for the Jarvi set Karl.

[Karl Henning]

Cheers, Jeffrey.

You know, offhand I wonder if the set would drop some of the non-symphony works, such as the Toccata, which I especially enjoy.  So I may just cherry-pick inexpensive used singletons.

[North Star]

Cheers, Jeffrey.

You know, offhand I wonder if the set would drop some of the non-symphony works, such as the Toccata, which I especially enjoy.  So I may just cherry-pick inexpensive used singletons.

Toccata and Suite from the ballet Kratt (The Goblin) are the only ones of those left in the box.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/feb03/Tubin_symphonies.htm