Sir Simon Rattle - Recommendations?

[Greta]

I was watching a video today of Sir Simon's BPO New Year's 2003 where he did a great La Valse and Daphnis, and really, I rather like his conducting, but don't have many of his recordings. The ones I do have I think are really nice, I have: his CBSO and Berlin Planets (not so much on the Berlin), his Adams' Harmonielehre, and his Mahler 3rd/CBSO (great), 5th/Berlin and Cooke 10th/Berlin (my only 10th but so lovely).

I know he can be controversial and hit or miss, but when it's hit, he's very fine indeed. He elicits an elegant, graceful sound from the orchestra and gives his readings a nice sensitivity and charm. Also I like his flow a lot, the way he balances push and pull.

What repertoire is he strongest in? His Mahler is very, very good so far for me, I'm curious about his M7 and his much heralded (at least by Gramophone) M8. And the 20th century stuff too, I didn't realize he had done so much of it. He has a huge discography spanning everything from Haydn to Szymanowski, not to mention a Beethoven cycle, there must be a few goldmines in there.

What are your favorite recordings of his?

[MishaK]

I find Rattle to be a mixed bag. He tends to be better with more modern stuff and rather aimless in the romantics. My favorite Rattle recordings are his CBSO Elgar Enigma Variations, BPO Messiaen Eclairs sur l'au-dela and his live BPO Mahler 6 from 1987.

[stingo]

I have the Rattle M8 and love it. Kind of a cross between Solti's Ecstaticus and Tennstedt's Profundus readings. And if I remember correctly, it fit onto a single CD.

I know he has a disc out with the BPO of Holst's The Planets. I heard Mercury, and Venus on the radio while driving, so admittedly not the ideal listening conditions, but it seemed a good solid choice,

[Maciek]

Most of his Szymanowski recordings are very good. I'd also like to second O Mensch's rec of the Messiaen.

Maciek

[nimrod79]

I really like his Shostakovich 10th with the CBSO.  And I think the previous opinions are spot on: strong with the 20th century, weaker with the romantics and classicists.  I'd avoid his Beethoven symphony cycle and Schubert's 9th.

[Sergeant Rock]

I know he can be controversial and hit or miss, but when it's hit, he's very fine indeed... What are your favorite recordings of his?

I've been disappointed very often by Rattle. In forty years of collecting music, I've kept everything I've ever bought with the exception of several Rattle CDs I traded away because I really couldn't stand them. However, as you say, when he's good, he's very good. My favorites:

Shostakovich Symphony #4

Sibelius Symphonies 3, 5 & 7

Mahler Das Klagende Lied (this is the only Mahler from him I like)

Bartok Violin Concerto with Kyung-Wha Chung

Maxwell Davies Symphony #1

Gershwin Porgy and Bess

Messiaen Eclairs sur l'au-dela (I second O's recommendation)

The Jazz Album is a lot of fun with both pop and classical "jazz" pieces by Milhaud, Bernstein, Gershwin, Stravinsky.

Sarge

[MishaK]

Bartok Violin Concerto with Kyung-Wha Chung

Oh, yes. That one's excellent! My brother in law had that on repeat in his car and I couldn't get enough of it. Reminds me I need to get a copy of my own.

[alkan]

I will second Sarge's recommendation for Shostakovich 4th symphony.
I just bought it (on Sarge's recommendation I think) and it is a great recording.
My reference for several years has been Kondrashin, and now I have a new
version in fabulous modern sound with a very satisfactory interpretation.

Highly recommended, if you like Shostakovich ....

[RebLem]

The Szymanowski King Roger is excellent.  I haven't heard the Porgy & Bess yet, but its in one of my "to be listened to" piles, and everybody says its the best one, so it probably is.  Another one I like is a twofer Britten  issue, which is on sale at ArkivMusic for $13.49 as I write this.  http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=9141

I didn't particularly care for the Beethoven symphony cycle, though.  Nothing wrong with it, you understand, just nothing especially right about it.

[Benji]

I really like his Le Sacre du Printemps. It's more slow-going than some accounts, but he builds up bucketloads of tension. Great stuff.

Also, his double disc of Britten goodies and rare bits is a bargain!

[Greta]

Thanks for all the recommendations! Lot of great stuff to choose from. His Shostakovich, Sibelius, and Le Sacre really sound interesting. The Messiaen piece I'm not familiar with yet.

So on the flip side, what was wrong in the interpretations of the CDs of his that you really didn't like?

Also what about his CBSO recordings vs. his Berlin? They had a long and close working relationship and it seems like they connected a bit better than him and Berlin. While they can make some great music together, I don't know if he's best suited for the BPO...

[MishaK]

So on the flip side, what was wrong in the interpretations of the CDs of his that you really didn't like?

I can't speak as to recordings I didn't like since I bought few of his CDs, but I heard a number of live performances I didn't like. He conducted a Rite in Berlin that was reasonably well played, but dramatically flaccid. He conducted a Bruckner 9 on tour with the BPO that was plagued with intonation and coordination problems uncharacteristic of that orchestra and which never took off and went nowhere. He did a Mahler 2 with Philadelphia at Carnegie that was full of bizarre and illogical phrasings that were not followed consistently. Similarly, a lot of phrasings in the Schoenberg/Brahms Quintet on his DVD of the Athens Europa Konzert of the BPO seem like incoherent afterthoughts, not organically evolved from the rest of the music.

[Bunny]

I can't speak as to recordings I didn't like since I bought few of his CDs, but I heard a number of live performances I didn't like. He conducted a Rite in Berlin that was reasonably well played, but dramatically flaccid. He conducted a Bruckner 9 on tour with the BPO that was plagued with intonation and coordination problems uncharacteristic of that orchestra and which never took off and went nowhere. He did a Mahler 2 with Philadelphia at Carnegie that was full of bizarre and illogical phrasings that were not followed consistently. Similarly, a lot of phrasings in the Schoenberg/Brahms Quintet on his DVD of the Athens Europa Konzert of the BPO seem like incoherent afterthoughts, not organically evolved from the rest of the music.

That's not the only things he's butchered in Carnegie Hall, and next year we get him doing twice as much damage as usual. I heard his Mahler 4 which I can only describe in terms of the karate Kid: Wax on wax off.  As soon as it picked up energy, he defused it with some strange rubato or dynamic shift.  It was a frustrating evening. 

Thanks for all the recommendations! Lot of great stuff to choose from. His Shostakovich, Sibelius, and Le Sacre really sound interesting. The Messiaen piece I'm not familiar with yet.

So on the flip side, what was wrong in the interpretations of the CDs of his that you really didn't like?

Also what about his CBSO recordings vs. his Berlin? They had a long and close working relationship and it seems like they connected a bit better than him and Berlin. While they can make some great music together, I don't know if he's best suited for the BPO...

I know from personal exeperience that he hasn't rethought his Mahler since his days at CBSO.  Also, he has worked hard to make the Berliners sound like the Birminghamians.  If ever you have the occasion to go to a BP concert, be warned; that rich sound that everyone loved under Karajan is long gone.  First Abbado slimmed off the fat from the sound and now Rattle has reduced it to anorexic proportions.  Maybe the Berliners play better, but lately they haven't been sounding better.

[MishaK]

Well, to his credit, I did hear him do some fantastic Ravel and Messiaen live in Berlin a couple of years ago.

[nimrod79]

His Beethoven symphonies are just odd.  He seems to want bring a synthesis of HIP with modern performances, but ends up producing an undramatic reading of the works that stresses all the drawbacks of period style without any of its merits.  When I compare it to Mackerras' Liverpool cycle, which manages to bridge the two styles (period style on modern instruments), it only stresses how dissapointing Rattle's reading is.  Phrases are made without much rationale, as if he is only doing them to make his reading stand out.  The readings lack any direction or warmth. The strings sound shrill and thin without sounding vibrant.

His Berlin Planets is extremely dissapointing.  I've never heard such a polite and timid Mars.  As someone already noted, the orchestra is perhaps more technically proficient, but this recording completely lacks any fire and energy.

[Greta]

His Berlin Planets is extremely dissapointing.  I've never heard such a polite and timid Mars.  As someone already noted, the orchestra is perhaps more technically proficient, but this recording completely lacks any fire and energy.

I completely agree. It couldn't be more different from his CBSO Planets which is full of both. I don't get it. But you know, I don't think Berlin is particularly well suited to that work, because I'm not really fond of Karajan's Berlin Planets either, but I like his Vienna. Rattle recorded The Planets with the Philharmonia too, and it's also better than his recent one.

He worked wonders with Birmingham and took them to great heights, and he can be a fine conductor if you can get past his idiosyncrasies. I hear idiosyncrasies in the Mahler I've heard from him, but in the recordings I have I like that, they're not too radical and it gives it his own stylistic stamp.

CBSO was a dang fine orchestra under him, but what I've heard of Berlin with him, I also noticed they are starting to sound different than those full tones of the Karajan days. I think the conductor needs to adapt also to suit his orchestra, not bend them to his will. I believe that ensembles have their own unique characteristics which make them special. It's taking the identity away to try to radically change that.

He seems personally committed to Berlin and I applaud that but I think he'd do better somewhere else. Don't know where though. I think he'd be very interesting in America. I can think of a host of other conductors that would work better in Berlin.

[Hector]

Well, I'm a Rattle enthusiast and in addition to Sarge's excellent list Mahler's 7th, 8th and 10th although some might find the recording of the first two difficult.

Petrushka (1947) and Symphony in 3 Movements.

Adams' Harmonielehre etc.

Schubert's 9th. Not a first choice, perhaps, but a fascinating revelation of detail.


'The Cunning Little Vixen.'

'Porgy and Bess.'

The Ades disc that includes 'Asyla.'

Maw's 'Odyssey.'

Gurrelieder.

Beethoven's 1st and 2nd piano Concertos with Lars Vogt.

[Don]

His Berlin Planets is extremely dissapointing.  I've never heard such a polite and timid Mars. 

Yes, Rattle made Mars sound like a negotiator.

[karlhenning]

Yes, Rattle made Mars sound like a negotiator.

Not like The Decider?

[MishaK]

CBSO was a dang fine orchestra under him, but what I've heard of Berlin with him, I also noticed they are starting to sound different than those full tones of the Karajan days.

The overall sound of the orchestra is not really that much different under Rattle than it was under Abbado. The change from Karajan to Abbado was more drastic.