Sir Simon Rattle - Recommendations?

[Don]

Not like The Decider?

No, just a moderator.

[Bunny]

Well, I'm a Rattle enthusiast and in addition to Sarge's excellent list Mahler's 7th, 8th and 10th although some might find the recording of the first two difficult.

Petrushka (1947) and Symphony in 3 Movements.

Adams' Harmonielehre etc.

Schubert's 9th. Not a first choice, perhaps, but a fascinating revelation of detail.


'The Cunning Little Vixen.'

'Porgy and Bess.'

The Ades disc that includes 'Asyla.'

Maw's 'Odyssey.'

Gurrelieder.

Beethoven's 1st and 2nd piano Concertos with Lars Vogt.

That is probably one of the least appealing recordings of that work I've ever heard.  It's not as bad as the Hurwitzer would suggest, but it's not anything that I would recommend that someone spend money on. 

[rubio]

I think Rattle's Creation (w/ Arleen Auger) absolutely is good. It could be hard to find a better English language version of this piece as long as the Hogwood recording remains OOP.

[nimrod79]

He seems personally committed to Berlin and I applaud that but I think he'd do better somewhere else. Don't know where though. I think he'd be very interesting in America. I can think of a host of other conductors that would work better in Berlin.

You know, I think that's the reason Rattle's qualities as a conductor are so often debated.  His committment, enthusiasm, and charisma are impressive and admirable, and he is the kind of personality who has a way of reaching out to the public and making the orchestra a part of the cultural life of its home city (as he did in Birmingham and Berlin).   Yet, the actual performances don't live up to the enthusiasm he brings to his work outside the concert hall.  I think he would be great at one of the big American orchestras, and always thought it would be interesting to seem him in New York (where his skills as a conductor of Mahler and American music would fit in well).

I also have to wonder how much EMI's recording engineers are at fault sometimes.  I heard the Berlin Philharmonic play Shostakovich's 10th symphony a month ago (though not conducted by Rattle) and it was amazing: visceral and vivid.  The second movement was brutal and terrifying, exactly how it ought to be (and how Mars should have been).  So the orchestra can sound far more impressive than his recordings would let us believe.

[Bunny]

I think Rattle's Creation (w/ Arleen Auger) absolutely is good. It could be hard to find a better English language version of this piece as long as the Hogwood recording remains OOP.

It's hard to find another English language version of this work because I don't believe there are any.  If everyone would just go to the Australian music site, Buywell.com and request that Eloquence reissue the Hogwood Creation then perhaps we might see it reissued and finally have a great alternative to Rattle's less than stellar effort.

Here's an excerpt from the review Hilary Finch wrote in Gramophone:

The real, resounding disappointment of Rattle's Creation is its air of impatience, rapid preparation, volatile pacing and poor balance.

Where Hogwood's rhythmic crispness gives impetus within and between movements, Rattle's, in its clipped chords, its over-phrasing and its garbled speeds, actually makes for a sense of creative stasis.

You know, I think that's the reason Rattle's qualities as a conductor are so often debated.  His committment, enthusiasm, and charisma are impressive and admirable, and he is the kind of personality who has a way of reaching out to the public and making the orchestra a part of the cultural life of its home city (as he did in Birmingham and Berlin).   Yet, the actual performances don't live up to the enthusiasm he brings to his work outside the concert hall.  I think he would be great at one of the big American orchestras, and always thought it would be interesting to seem him in New York (where his skills as a conductor of Mahler and American music would fit in well).

Thank you very much, but No Thank You!  I think Rattle would be a disaster here, just going by how disastrous his guest performance with the Philadelphia was.

I also have to wonder how much EMI's recording engineers are at fault sometimes.  I heard the Berlin Philharmonic play Shostakovich's 10th symphony a month ago (though not conducted by Rattle) and it was amazing: visceral and vivid.  The second movement was brutal and terrifying, exactly how it ought to be (and how Mars should have been).  So the orchestra can sound far more impressive than his recordings would let us believe.

EMI recordings can have good sound quality as well as indifferent sound quality.  The sound quality of the Bertini Mahler cycle is amazing.  I heard the BP live under Rattle and they don't sound as wonderful as they used to.  Who knows, maybe they sound better recorded now.  I will say that when I heard them with Rattle, they didn't sound bad, just less powerful, less sumptuous which was very different from how they sounded under Karajan years ago, and even from how they sounded under Abbado.  Rattle prefers a leaner orchestral sound because he loves texture and transparency, but for some reason his sound lacks the power that everyone has come to love in the modern orchestra.  Perhaps he should go to Minnesota and learn how Osmo Vänskä gets those qualities without sacrificing the lush, full orchestral sound of the modern orchestra.  I will admit that the Minnesota players are not the virtuosi that the Berliners are, but the sound of the Minnesota SO under Vänskä  is superior to the sound of the BP under Rattle.

[knight66]

There is another Creation in English, Willcocks Kings College, Heather Harper, Robert Tear. I saw it on sale a week or so ago on the net.

I could not take the hooty choral singing. The Rattle has one of the worst bass soloists I have heard. I have the set, but only listen to bits of it. Auger is excellent. Rattle makes it light and airy and dramatic, but no depth to it.

Mike

[BachQ]

Rattle/Barenboim/BPO present an above-average performance of Brahms' first piano concerto for a Europa-Athens concert (DVD).  Unhappily, Rattle's high-energy leadership is insufficient to compensate for Barenboim's lackluster performance in the first movement.  Nevertheless, the visuals/acoustics of this DVD are stunning. 

The Rattle/Zimerman CD of Brahms PC 1 is much better.

[rubio]

There is another Creation in English, Willcocks Kings College, Heather Harper, Robert Tear. I saw it on sale a week or so ago on the net.

I could not take the hooty choral singing. The Rattle has one of the worst bass soloists I have heard. I have the set, but only listen to bits of it. Auger is excellent. Rattle makes it light and airy and dramatic, but no depth to it.

Mike

I really love Auger's voice. Some other recordings including her that are highly recommendable?

[nimrod79]

I think Rattle would be a disaster here, just going by how disastrous his guest performance with the Philadelphia was.

I'm just curious, what happened when he went to conduct Philadelphia? 

[Maciek]

I really love Auger's voice. Some other recordings including her that are highly recommendable?

Mike told me the other day he read that she was the most recorded soprano in history. Funnily enough, I don't think I have a single recording (possibly because my collection generally isn't very impressive )...

Maciek

[Bunny]

I'm just curious, what happened when he went to conduct Philadelphia? 

Here's an excerpt from a review:

There was also bigness as in just plain big. Solo singing was reduced to heavy lifting for purposes of survival. Andrea Gruber (Tove) and Thomas Moser (Waldemar) labored admirably but labored nonetheless. The multitudinous men's choir, singing for all it was worth, sometimes found itself outmanned and fading out of earshot. A number of moments, one in Waldemar's ''Ross! Mein Ross!,'' were of astounding loudness. A tactful program insert inveighed gently against audience noisemakers, but the disruptive cough, if such existed, never had a chance against what was coming from the stage.

[Greta]

@Nimrod: I'm curious what he'd do in New York too. Yes, it would be controversial but it would be quite interesting! However.. I don't think he'd be interested, as Berlin, where the god Karajan held sway for so long, is still seen as about the top of the totem pole. I suppose he'll stay there as long as they'll have him.

Has anyone seen him conduct New York? When/if has he ever and what was the result? It's possible he and Philly aren't a good match, look at Eschenbach who was amazing here in Houston and what happened, I wouldn't have expected that.

Philly should probably have gone ahead and appointed Dutoit for good, lord knows he wants it, he's been conducting there for years and he's very solid.

[canninator]

Not a huge enthusiast of his but I am enamored of his Sibelius 5th. The transition in the Allegro Molto was a revalation after only having heard the Maazel before that.

[Bunny]

@Nimrod: I'm curious what he'd do in New York too. Yes, it would be controversial but it would be quite interesting! However.. I don't think he'd be interested, as Berlin, where the god Karajan held sway for so long, is still seen as about the top of the totem pole. I suppose he'll stay there as long as they'll have him.

Has anyone seen him conduct New York? When/if has he ever and what was the result? It's possible he and Philly aren't a good match, look at Eschenbach who was amazing here in Houston and what happened, I wouldn't have expected that.

The NYPO is harder on their conductors than the Philadelphia O.  They need someone who is a diplomat as much as a musician; a stern but loving "Papa" to give them discipline with love.  The NY MD will also have to deal with all the heavy hitters on the NYPO board as well as the big contributors.  They won't care for Rattle's more experimental programming and they will want that gigantic hall sold out more often than not and  I'm not sure Rattle could sell the tickets here.

Philly should probably have gone ahead and appointed Dutoit for good, lord knows he wants it, he's been conducting there for years and he's very solid.

And they will get a good bit of Argerich with him.  Although they are divorced, they still really enjoy working together.

[Hector]

The NYPO is harder on their conductors than the Philadelphia O.  They need someone who is a diplomat as much as a musician; a stern but loving "Papa" to give them discipline with love.  The NY MD will also have to deal with all the heavy hitters on the NYPO board as well as the big contributors.  They won't care for Rattle's more experimental programming and they will want that gigantic hall sold out more often than not and  I'm not sure Rattle could sell the tickets here.

And they will get a good bit of Argerich with him.  Although they are divorced, they still really enjoy working together.

They will not get Rattle or any other top Euro conductor and not, solely, for the reasons that you cite.

Unless, of course, it's an offer that cannot be refused!

[Bunny]

They will not get Rattle or any other top Euro conductor and not, solely, for the reasons that you cite.

Unless, of course, it's an offer that cannot be refused!

As we say in NY, "Money talks!"

Right now they have a caretaker director in Maazel.   What they need is a Maestro with the chops to back up the hype, not a "sad rattle."

[MishaK]

Has anyone seen him conduct New York? When/if has he ever and what was the result? It's possible he and Philly aren't a good match, look at Eschenbach who was amazing here in Houston and what happened, I wouldn't have expected that.

I haven't seen Rattle with NYPO, not sure if he ever conducted them. I heard him do A Mahler 2 with Philly that was very well played, but interpretively a bit incoherent. I still don't understand the issue with Eschenbach in Philly. He was excellent with the CSO at Ravinia and everything I heard with him and Philly was outstanding as well. They did a teriffic Mahler 1 on tour in Germany a few years ago.

Philly should probably have gone ahead and appointed Dutoit for good, lord knows he wants it, he's been conducting there for years and he's very solid.

He's much more than solid. He conducted some excellent Ravel, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Wagner, Goldmark and Tchaikovsky here in Chicago a few weeks ago.

They will not get Rattle or any other top Euro conductor and not, solely, for the reasons that you cite.

Well, it is really mostly the reasons he cites. US orchestra boards have become just intolerable with their demands for the conductor to engage in non-musical activities like fundraising. That's really one of the main reasons why so many have left recently and why few are really attracted to coming back. I see an off-chance that Chailly or Muti could be lured back to these shores, but not any of the others at the moment.

[Bunny]

I haven't seen Rattle with NYPO, not sure if he ever conducted them. I heard him do A Mahler 2 with Philly that was very well played, but interpretively a bit incoherent. I still don't understand the issue with Eschenbach in Philly. He was excellent with the CSO at Ravinia and everything I heard with him and Philly was outstanding as well. They did a teriffic Mahler 1 on tour in Germany a few years ago.

He's much more than solid. He conducted some excellent Ravel, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Wagner, Goldmark and Tchaikovsky here in Chicago a few weeks ago.

Well, it is really mostly the reasons he cites. US orchestra boards have become just intolerable with their demands for the conductor to engage in non-musical activities like fundraising. That's really one of the main reasons why so many have left recently and why few are really attracted to coming back. I see an off-chance that Chailly or Muti could be lured back to these shores, but not any of the others at the moment.

I don't see Chailly leaving Leipzig in the near future and he doesn't seem like the type to enjoy jetting back and forth to NY every month or so.  Muti would be another "safe" choice, but NY really needs to get over the reluctance to hire a ground breaker.  Status quo in the music world doesn't attract lucrative recording contracts which is where the real money is.  The NYPO needs to find a young lion who can be assistant director for a few years, learn the ropes, and then take over the orchestra.  Too often the board goes out to see just which hired gun they can get.  I wish Barenboim were interested in the position, but that's really a pipe dream. And yes, I know, he's no spring chicken either. 

[Don]

My crystal ball shows Andrea Marcon heading for NY.

[knight66]

Bunny, Talking of recording contracts...I read a long time ago that New York, both as far as the Orchestra and the Met opera Co were concerned, were so expensive that recordings simply were not viable. Has all that problem been ironed out, at least as far as the orchestra is concerned?


The Met produces DVDs of live performances, but beyond Bernstein's Carmen, I cannot think of any recent full opera sets on CD. The Met orchestra seems to make discs OK with Levine though.

Mike