Bruckners 6th

[(poco) Sforzando]

What?  What what what?
Only one mention of the Karajan set?  Shocking.  It by far outshines the rest!!  By a million miles.  However, I am interested in the post which says there is fine detail to be had in the monstrously slow plodder that was Celibidache, so I'll listen to that again.
But Karajan mastered Bruckner in the 70's (I think offhand) and theres hardly a finer performance to be found out there.

That post about "the monstrously slow plodder that was Celibidache" (EMI that is) specifically made the point that all but the slow movement are taken at standard speeds, and the Adagio is about 20 minutes compared to the usual 15 or so.

[M forever]

What?  What what what?
Only one mention of the Karajan set?  Shocking.  It by far outshines the rest!!  By a million miles.  However, I am interested in the post which says there is fine detail to be had in the monstrously slow plodder that was Celibidache, so I'll listen to that again.
But Karajan mastered Bruckner in the 70's (I think offhand) and theres hardly a finer performance to be found out there.

Not when it comes to the 6th symphony. Apparently, Karajan didn't feel much affinity to the piece - he never conducted it live and only recorded it once, to complete the cycle. A basically very solid and well prepared performance, but not one of the best or even better ones of the 6th. There were/are conductors who found more in the piece than Karajan did. Strangely, he never conducted symphonies nos. 1-3 in concert either.

[Lilas Pastia]

Karajan's DG BPO Bruckner recordings are not especially original or distinguished. There's a high level of orchestral proficiency troughout, and a clear sense of direction in the best ones (2, 3 and 9). The rest are good and solid but not much more. I can imagine someone enjoying the set and enjoying Bruckner as a result (a most desirable outcome), but I can't imagine anyone choosing one of these interpretations above half a dozen others (well at least for the oft-recorded 4-9).

For the 6th, a strong, forceful podium personality and a very lucid way with the score is the best combination. This is probably the most propulsive of all his symphonies. Which doesn't mean it ought to move at high speed. Bongartz, Keilberth, Kegel, Stein and Leitner achieve wonders and all have a great orchestra to abet their powerful, rather austere interpretations. Moreover, they are normally easy to obtain.

At one point I liked the Klemperer a lot, but after a few years I came to see it as dodgy. I need to reacquaint myself with it. Other more amiable but suitably dynamic and strong performances I think of: the various Jochums, Haitink, Rögner, Lopez-Cobos,  Karajan and Skrowaczewski. I find the Bernstein interesting but very erratic. Nagano is embarrassingly nondescript. I still have the old Swoboda recording to listen to. I have no idea what to expect. It's a 1950 Vienna Symphony Orchestra performance.

[eyeresist]

Not when it comes to the 6th symphony. Apparently, Karajan didn't feel much affinity to the piece - he never conducted it live and only recorded it once, to complete the cycle. A basically very solid and well prepared performance, but not one of the best or even better ones of the 6th. There were/are conductors who found more in the piece than Karajan did. Strangely, he never conducted symphonies nos. 1-3 in concert either.

Especially odd considering how good his 1 and 3 are. Not sure about 2 

[MISHUGINA]

A lot of people recommend Klemperer but I didn't like the dodgy cross-rhythms before the coda in 1st movement. But the rest, especially the Mahlerian Adagio is terrific.

[Gustav]

A lot of people recommend Klemperer but I didn't like the dodgy cross-rhythms before the coda in 1st movement. But the rest, especially the Mahlerian Adagio is terrific.

is it appropriate to describe the music of an earlier composer with the style of a later one?

[head-case]

is it appropriate to describe the music of an earlier composer with the style of a later one?

I guess you could claim an earlier composer anticipated a style that was further developed by a later composer.  My problem is that there is nothing "Mahlerian" about this movement.  It is archetypical Bruckner

[Lilas Pastia]

I guess you could claim an earlier composer anticipated a style that was further developed by a later composer.  My problem is that there is nothing "Mahlerian" about this movement.  It is archetypical Bruckner

I think this is probably Bruckner's most lucidly conceived slow movement. The structure is unusually classical. For me it's the high point of the symphony. Actually, the 6th is the only Bruckner symphony of which I can say the slow movement is my favourite moment. I usually root more for his first and last movements.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think this is probably Bruckner's most lucidly conceived slow movement. The structure is unusually classical. For me it's the high point of the symphony. Actually, the 6th is the only Bruckner symphony of which I can say the slow movement is my favourite moment. I usually root more for his first and last movements.

Yes, it's glorious. Some hear a Hans Sachs-like melancholy in the music. My favourite recording is Jochum, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.

[Renfield]

For the 6th, a strong, forceful podium personality and a very lucid way with the score is the best combination. This is probably the most propulsive of all his symphonies. Which doesn't mean it ought to move at high speed.

I think Lilas Pastia "nails" my own view on the 6th as well, in this quote.


It's certainly elusive, recording-wise. I'm not sure I've heard a really satisfying recording of it apart from the Klemperer/Philharmonia: and I still wonder if that one might not be a little too eccentric for the music's sake.

Wand with the North German Radio Symphony Orchestra (the recording linked above, at some point) is also pretty good to my ears, as is the Haitink/Concertgebouw one from the Philips box set.

Ditto perhaps, to an extent, for Skrowaczewski and Barenboim, though it's been a while since I listened to either.


I certainly know I didn't like the Solti/CSO performance I've seen on TV (presumably out on DVD - found it flat, loud and shallow), and I also don't care especially much for Karajan's recording, either; it's nice, but... "nice".

Tintner's, IIRC, lost a bit of its punch due to being "orchestrally uneven". Although I don't remember it being as bad as most of the recordings of this symphony I don't prefer exactly because they "run out of steam" at certain points (e.g. Jochum).

Alll in all, I'm not sure if there is a recording other than the Klemperer I could recommend, apart from the Celibidache/Munich - but that's a special case, and very eccentric indeed. I like it, but "your mileage may vary".


P.S. There is another recording I quite enjoy, by Takashi Asahina, with the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra. But it's quite a pain to find - I have it as part of a box set. And it's also "orchestrally uneven", although very well-conceived.


[Yes, I do skim through this forum on occasion; especially as of late. ]

[Gustav]

P.S. There is another recording I quite enjoy, by Takashi Asahina, with the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra. But it's quite a pain to find - I have it as part of a box set. And it's also "orchestrally uneven", although very well-conceived.

What do you think about Asahina's take on the 2nd Symphony?

[Renfield]

What do you think about Asahina's take on the 2nd Symphony?

That is actually the wrong question to ask me.

To elaborate: I am near-clueless about Bruckner's 2nd symphony, in general. For some reason, and even though I greatly appreciate Bruckner's other 8 2/3 symphonies, or even the Nulte as well, the 2nd has never "clicked" with me.

When it does, I'll be sure to let you know of what I think of Asahina's take on it. Until then, I couldn't be confident to speak on it.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That is actually the wrong question to ask me.

To elaborate: I am near-clueless about Bruckner's 2nd symphony, in general. For some reason, and even though I greatly appreciate Bruckner's other 8 2/3 symphonies, or even the Nulte as well, the 2nd has never "clicked" with me.

When it does, I'll be sure to let you know of what I think of Asahina's take on it. Until then, I couldn't be confident to speak on it.

You should listen to Giulini's recording of Bruckner's Second, perhaps that could reveal the beauties of this work to you.

[Renfield]

You should listen to Giulini's recording of Bruckner's Second, perhaps that could reveal the beauties of this work to you.

Don't get me wrong, I don't find it ugly, or bad. It just hasn't worked with me like the others have, to date.

[Gustav]

You should listen to Giulini's recording of Bruckner's Second, perhaps that could reveal the beauties of this work to you.

or Eichhorn, he gives you 3 versions, so there must be at least one that would appeal to Renfield.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Don't get me wrong, I don't find it ugly, or bad. It just hasn't worked with me like the others have, to date.

Don't worry, I know the experiece - I had the same thing with the Vaughan Williams Fifth; that only 'clicked' a few weeks ago (after having liked all his other symphonies for thirty years!)

[BorisG]

You should listen to Giulini's recording of Bruckner's Second, perhaps that could reveal the beauties of this work to you.

Yes to that.

Regarding Asahina 1986 Tokyo, sometimes scarcity breeds hyperbole.

[Lilas Pastia]

Don't worry, I know the experiece - I had the same thing with the Vaughan Williams Fifth; that only 'clicked' a few weeks ago (after having liked all his other symphonies for thirty years!)

That's an interesting and quite apposite parallel. VW's 5th is likely to sound like an inflated version of the Tallis Fantasia if one doesn't approach it from the right angle. Which may prove very elusive. Sometimes 'clicking', with a piece of music has nothing to do with hearing it in the "right interpretation" but more to do with hearing it in the right circumstances, stage of personal development and frame of mind.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's an interesting and quite apposite parallel. VW's 5th is likely to sound like an inflated version of the Tallis Fantasia if one doesn't approach it from the right angle. Which may prove very elusive. Sometimes 'clicking', with a piece of music has nothing to do with hearing it in the "right interpretation" but more to do with hearing it in the right circumstances, stage of personal development and frame of mind.

Spot on.

Oh, and by the way - I still have a problem with the Sibelius Sixth...

[Lilas Pastia]

Spot on.

Oh, and by the way - I still have a problem with the Sibelius Sixth...

Heee... In this particular case I can only reflect on my own personal experience, which was hearing the Sibelius 6th in 'the right interpretation'  at the appropriate moment -which begs the question: what can possibly be "the right circumstances, stage of personal development and frame of mind"  ? IMO it's a conjunction of circumstances, some of which are factual, some psychological and some purely fortuitous. For your information, and if that can help, it was the DGG Karajan recording, and the 'moment' that hooked me was in the first movement, when the primeval english horn theme emerges from the mists.  I've never heard it with the same kind of concentrated, inward feeling as emerges from that classic reading (not even the EMI remake, more stoic and infinitely less poetic). From there on, all the musical argument seems to evolve and revolve around. Try to keep this 'germinal motif' in mind: it's the basis of the whole work.

Some works have that very elusive quality. They're more  private than public. So much so that one wonders how the composer ever agreed to have them published. That's where they bare their soul.