Are Swedish composers unjustly neglected?

[greg]

Nothing to be proud of, especially for someone who wants to consider himself a composer.

nothing i'm proud of, or not proud of. Just haven't found many of Beethoven's works to even be interesting at all, even though some I do like.

[karlhenning]

Hmm. I haven't tried that one yet . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

Maybe not. But often when I listen to Pettersson I say to myself: oh god is this ever going to end? As in the symphony (is it #16?) which is half symphony and half saxophone concerto.

The cure for that, obviously, is to not listen to Pettersson. Or to listen only to the symphony half and not the saxophone concerto half. Or listen only to 1-minute clips. But I assure you that, unlike football or baseball games, even a Pettersson symphony eventually comes to its lugubrious end.

[PerfectWagnerite]

We don't need to go that far. I'm reminded (though memory could be faulty, haven't read the book for 30 years) of a savage portrait in Evelyn Waugh's "Decline and Fall" of an individual who goes around making conversation at a garden party: "Have you heard of an excellent writer I have discovered - Shakespeare?"

Don't quite get the connection. It's not like I didn't "get" Beethoven until recently. But the more I listen the more I think I am just skimming the surface of his music.

[karlhenning]

The cure for that, obviously, is to not listen to Pettersson. Or to listen only to the symphony half and not the saxophone concerto half.

Mebbe it's the saxophone concerto half that he prefers. Ha! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The cure for that, obviously, is to not listen to Pettersson. Or to listen only to the symphony half and not the saxophone concerto half. Or listen only to 1-minute clips. But I assure you that, unlike football or baseball games, even a Pettersson symphony eventually comes to its lugubrious end.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Don't quite get the connection. It's not like I didn't "get" Beethoven until recently. But the more I listen the more I think I am just skimming the surface of his music.

It's as if you're saying one of the most universally admired composers in history (except, apparently by GGGGRRRRREEEEEG - hope I've spelled that right) has somehow not been given his due.

[PerfectWagnerite]

The cure for that, obviously, is to not listen to Pettersson. Or to listen only to the symphony half and not the saxophone concerto half. Or listen only to 1-minute clips. But I assure you that, unlike football or baseball games, even a Pettersson symphony eventually comes to its lugubrious end.

Well I paid $80 for the darn set and I am going to listen to it if it is the last thing I do. I think what I probably need is a book on Pettersson. Something that tells me the form he is using, his harmonic language, how he modulates, etc., et., like books out there on Beethoven and Haydn and Mahler.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well I paid $80 for the darn set and I am going to listen to it if it is the last thing I do. I think what I probably need is a book on Pettersson. Something that tells me the form he is using, his harmonic language, how he modulates, etc., et., like books out there on Beethoven and Haydn and Mahler.

Alas, PW, there is no Pettersson 'industry'. So you'll have to rely on your own powers of musical understanding. I think there is an OOP study on him in German. And there should be one or two in Swedish. But that's about it, I'm afraid. You're on your own...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mebbe it's the saxophone concerto half that he prefers. Ha! 

I hadn't thought of so noxious a possibility. But honestly, the only suitable metaphor I can use for describing a Pettersson symphony is the vile stuff you have to drink in preparation for a colonoscopy.

[karlhenning]

Well I paid $80 for the darn set and I am going to listen to it if it is the last thing I do.

Well, you should certainly give all of it a listen.

Probably two listens.  I mean, you get more out of Beethoven by listening more than once, right?  Chances are, even Pettersson too deserves more than one exposure.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Alas, PW, there is no Pettersson 'industry'. So you'll have to rely on your own powers of musical understanding. I think there is an OOP study on him in German. And there should be one or two in Swedish. But that's about it, I'm afraid. You're on your own...

Well maybe I can try getting a score or two first...

And what is with CPO's recordings anyway? I know Pettersson's works are often one long 50+ minute movement. Can you at least give separate tracks so if I have to hit the stop button on my cd player I don't have to start at the beginning (yes my player stinks but that is another story)?

[(poco) Sforzando]

nothing i'm proud of, or not proud of. Just haven't found many of Beethoven's works to even be interesting at all, even though some I do like.

A topic for another thread, obviously, but I would hope you will not shut that particular door, as no composer can teach you more.

[karlhenning]

I hadn't thought of so noxious a possibility. But honestly, the only suitable metaphor I can use for describing a Pettersson symphony is the vile stuff you have to drink in preparation for a colonoscopy.

For the moment, I will restrict comment to the observation that there is worthwhile place in this world for colonoscopies, too . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

how he modulates

The last time I sat through the 7th, all I could remember afterwards was one B-minor motif in the trombones, repeated over and over, never modulating . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well maybe I can try getting a score or two first...

Very hard to find. I've managed to acquire 6, 7, and 9 over the years, and I can point you to a source for 5 if you're willing to pay $62 plus shipping from the UK, but otherwise no dice that I know of.

[greg]

A topic for another thread, obviously, but I would hope you will not shut that particular door, as no composer can teach you more.

Well, no, I give him a chance every now and then just like any other composer. And I try to enjoy some of his stuff, but i can only enjoy some of his stuff, a lot of it i just don't like, basically.

And "no composer can teach you more"..... uh, i really disagree there. Maybe if I aimed to compose stuff that sounded like him, maybe, but that's not the case. The biggest help to me when I first started composing was the Prokofiev Piano Sonatas. Really gave me direction and an overload of creative ideas.

And I have read through some of Beethoven's scores, not excessively, but there's just so much more to learn in a score for a Mahler symphony than, for example, in the one i studied (the Eroica). The orchestra is a lot bigger and more varied, with generally way more complexity- which is exactly what I want to imitate in my music.

[(poco) Sforzando]

For the moment, I will restrict comment to the observation that there is worthwhile place in this world for colonoscopies, too . . . .

Indeed, but I'm less certain the same can be said for Pettersson.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Very hard to find. I've managed to acquire 6, 7, and 9 over the years, and I can point you to a source for 5 if you're willing to pay $62 plus shipping from the UK, but otherwise no dice that I know of.

Uhhh, not thanks, not for $62. I'll try the Lincoln Center Library first. Don't think I found any 10 years ago but maybe they restocked them.

And I have read through some of Beethoven's scores, not excessively, but there's just so much more to learn in a score for a Mahler symphony than, for example, in the one i studied (the Eroica). The orchestra is a lot bigger and more varied, with generally way more complexity- which is exactly what I want to imitate in my music.

You do realize that Beethoven was one of Mahler's gods right? The other one was Wagner (from whom you may also pick up a few neat tricks, like to change keys in the blink of an eye).

Anyway Mahler and Beethoven had a lot in common - like variety of expressive power from the orchestra, achieving organic unity in a large work from small motivif cells. Well I don't want to belabor the point but you get the gist.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, no, I give him a chance every now and then just like any other composer. And I try to enjoy some of his stuff, but i can only enjoy some of his stuff, a lot of it i just don't like, basically.

And "no composer can teach you more"..... uh, i really disagree there. Maybe if I aimed to compose stuff that sounded like him, maybe, but that's not the case. The biggest help to me when I first started composing was the Prokofiev Piano Sonatas. Really gave me direction and an overload of creative ideas.

And I have read through some of Beethoven's scores, not excessively, but there's just so much more to learn in a score for a Mahler symphony than, for example, in the one i studied (the Eroica). The orchestra is a lot bigger and more varied, with generally way more complexity- which is exactly what I want to imitate in my music.

A reasonable and intelligently considered reply. But not one that moves me to modify my position - which of course was never meant to imply that other composers don't have a great deal to teach you.

What can you possibly learn from Beethoven? Why are his sonatas and quartets the standard stuff of study in so many theory courses? But just to pick up your example from orchestration: Webern (who of course was a devoted Mahlerian, like the others from the SVS) listened once to Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe. Very unimpressed, his only comment was: "Why does he use four of each of the winds? Beethoven used only two, and it is so mighty."