Plantinga: The God Delusion

[Saul]

He is a conservative "Rabbi".. it means nothing...

[M forever]

You think?  No one else who watched the debate seems to think so, as you can see here, here and here.

The funny thing is that a lot of the positive comments are very obviously from our very own Saul here, appearing under the name of "saulboyit".

[M forever]

The rabbi has a few good points there. Yes, we have the potential for "higher qualities", we can be "compassionate" and "inspired", and we can somehow grow beyond an animal that was shaped by relentless evolution or whatever other mechanisms of development were at work there. I completely agree. I also agree with him in principle that the potential for "goodness" and "righteousness" is innate in us, and that we should develop that.

However, I don't see at all what all that has to do with adhering to a primitive tribal religion. In fact, adhering to that kind of primitive tribal religious thinking really stands in the way of realizing such ideals on a broader scale. He is also wrong about assuming and claiming that people who do not adhere to such superstitions can not live up to high standards. Here, he is directly contradicting himself, because if the potential for goodness is innate in us, why should we need "divine commandments" then to see that? He is also wrong when he says that the 10 commandments are so powerful and binding because they were given by "god". Like the one which says "thou shalt not kill". Only a few pages later in the bible, it is all about killing and decimating and erasing entire peoples.

I am not surprised that within his 15 minutes expose, he builds in all that, and of course, references to Hitler and the holocaust, and the fact that even though that happened, Jews were so bound by those commandments that they didn't blow up buses and other stuff in reaction to the persecution. That is very sad and simplistic populism which, of course, points towards the current situation in Israel. Simplistic, populist, clever, and very immoral and calculated. People like that rabbi are very dangerous because they have clear onjectives and goals and use simplistic propagandist techniques to snare in simple minds, like our friend Saul here.

All his comments about evolution and all that are also nonsense. Sure, evolution is a brutal and merciless principle, but recognizing it doesn't mean one has to condone the "survival of the fittest" as something humans have to implement, too, by killing off weaker people. That is where our human greatness and compassion can come into play. But that is exactly what his religion preaches. His religion is all about being part of a "chosen" group. Which inferes that other people are less "chosen", for whatever reason. And the bible is all about celebrating the slaughtering of people who are not "chosen".

Which is kind of ironical. I don't know either if there is some kind of divine principle at work behind everything, but it is glaringly obvious that if there is such a thing as a higher power, it is certainly none of the totally invented "gods" of conventional mythology. Those are all obvious inventions of humans. Like the other speaker points out, people have "discarded" a lot of deities over the millenia, so why not discard some which are very obviously the invention of humans?

As we have already clarified in another recent discussion, the stories in the bible are to a very large degree invented and have no relationship to actual verifiable history, just like all the other religions out there today, and in the past.

That the powerful "god" described in the bible doesn't exist has been proven over and over again, by the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, lots of people up to the Nazis who clarified once and for all that that "god" doesn't exist or if he does, he doesn't give a shit about the "chosen people" anymore. It is easy to see why a group of people which has been constantly humiliated over and over again through the ages needs to indulge in fantasies of being protected by a powerful "god", but it is just as easy to see that that "god" is pure fantasy.

So again, some of the things the rabbi says there are definitely true, but he completely fails to explain why all these good qualities of people should be tied to adhering to a primitive tribal religion. In that, he completely contradicts himself. When he says that evolutionist principles are cruel and inhuman, then he has to apply that to his own elitist and exclusionist mythtology as well.

[Shrunk]

Rabbi Boteach debated in a great manner, asking great questions and bringing towering points to the discussions.

Well, I've now watched the debate, but I must say I somehow missed the parts you  mention.  I don't see much point in rehashing the debate here, however.  Anyone can watch it and make up their own minds.  I think we've already derailed Al's thread enough.

[Shrunk]

          I note that Marxist critic Terry Eagleton agrees with believers who scorn Dawkin's reasoning on the grounds that Dawkins doesn't pay sufficient attention to the subtleties of theology.

I can't say I find this argument very convincing.  It's interesting that those who make it usually have little problem accepting that someone can believe in God without an extensive background in theology.

[Saul]

The rabbi has a few good points there. Yes, we have the potential for "higher qualities", we can be "compassionate" and "inspired", and we can somehow grow beyond an animal that was shaped by relentless evolution or whatever other mechanisms of development were at work there. I completely agree. I also agree with him in principle that the potential for "goodness" and "righteousness" is innate in us, and that we should develop that.

However, I don't see at all what all that has to do with adhering to a primitive tribal religion. In fact, adhering to that kind of primitive tribal religious thinking really stands in the way of realizing such ideals on a broader scale. He is also wrong about assuming and claiming that people who do not adhere to such superstitions can not live up to high standards. Here, he is directly contradicting himself, because if the potential for goodness is innate in us, why should we need "divine commandments" then to see that? He is also wrong when he says that the 10 commandments are so powerful and binding because they were given by "god". Like the one which says "thou shalt not kill". Only a few pages later in the bible, it is all about killing and decimating and erasing entire peoples.

I am not surprised that within his 15 minutes expose, he builds in all that, and of course, references to Hitler and the holocaust, and the fact that even though that happened, Jews were so bound by those commandments that they didn't blow up buses and other stuff in reaction to the persecution. That is very sad and simplistic populism which, of course, points towards the current situation in Israel. Simplistic, populist, clever, and very immoral and calculated. People like that rabbi are very dangerous because they have clear onjectives and goals and use simplistic propagandist techniques to snare in simple minds, like our friend Saul here.

All his comments about evolution and all that are also nonsense. Sure, evolution is a brutal and merciless principle, but recognizing it doesn't mean one has to condone the "survival of the fittest" as something humans have to implement, too, by killing off weaker people. That is where our human greatness and compassion can come into play. But that is exactly what his religion preaches. His religion is all about being part of a "chosen" group. Which inferes that other people are less "chosen", for whatever reason. And the bible is all about celebrating the slaughtering of people who are not "chosen".

Which is kind of ironical. I don't know either if there is some kind of divine principle at work behind everything, but it is glaringly obvious that if there is such a thing as a higher power, it is certainly none of the totally invented "gods" of conventional mythology. Those are all obvious inventions of humans. Like the other speaker points out, people have "discarded" a lot of deities over the millenia, so why not discard some which are very obviously the invention of humans?

As we have already clarified in another recent discussion, the stories in the bible are to a very large degree invented and have no relationship to actual verifiable history, just like all the other religions out there today, and in the past.

That the powerful "god" described in the bible doesn't exist has been proven over and over again, by the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, lots of people up to the Nazis who clarified once and for all that that "god" doesn't exist or if he does, he doesn't give a shit about the "chosen people" anymore. It is easy to see why a group of people which has been constantly humiliated over and over again through the ages needs to indulge in fantasies of being protected by a powerful "god", but it is just as easy to see that that "god" is pure fantasy.

So again, some of the things the rabbi says there are definitely true, but he completely fails to explain why all these good qualities of people should be tied to adhering to a primitive tribal religion. In that, he completely contradicts himself. When he says that evolutionist principles are cruel and inhuman, then he has to apply that to his own elitist and exclusionist mythtology as well.

Have you watched the entire debate?

[M forever]

Yep. Like I said, he has a few good points about the human potential to rise to a "higher" level, but there is absolutely no reason at all to tie that to his or any other religion. In other words, sorry Saul, they cut off part of your dick for nothing. You can be however good or bad you want to be, however inspired and spiritual (or not) you want to be, you can be "in touch" with the mysteries of our world, you can be and do all that and much more with your best friend intact. You don't need to be part of some tribal cult. And being part of it doesn't guarantee you are somebody special either. They lied to you about that to make you emotionally dependent and influenceable. It's just primitive tribalism, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Saul]

Yep. Like I said, he has a few good points about the human potential to rise to a "higher" level, but there is absolutely no reason at all to tie that to his or any other religion. In other words, sorry Saul, they cut off part of your dick for nothing. You can be however good or bad you want to be, however inspired and spiritual (or not) you want to be, you can be "in touch" with the mysteries of our world, you can be and do all that and much more with your best friend intact. You don't need to be part of some tribal cult. And being part of it doesn't guarantee you are somebody special either. They lied to you about that to make you emotionally dependent and influenceable. It's just primitive tribalism, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well , the only reason we do it, is because G-d had commanded us to perform this ritual. You, M, do not believe in G-d, therefore you cant understand why someone would agree to have a circumcision. But for the believing Jew, who believes and knows that the G-d of the universe had commanded his forefather Abraham with this commandment and later on wrote in the Torah that all Jews on the eight day of their birth should enter the covenant through this ritual, it makes perfect sense. Whether it has medical benefits is a non-issue. Whether abstaining from eating pork is healthy or not, makes no difference for the faithful Jew who believes in the almighty.

Remember one thing M, that you are not Jewish, and you have no idea what it means to be a Jew, you also do not know or appreciate the beauty of the Torah, its depth and wisdom. You are an outsider who uses his extremely limited understanding and comprehension of the Torah way of life, to view every single commandment as a burden and as a great toil. But its easy to cast insults and criticize from the outside, when the full picture and the essence of the concepts of Judaism are only virtual in your mind , never materialized or lived through in real life.

Even if  you understood the great and pivotal significance of this commandment to the Jewish people, you would still had a blurred and fogy vision and understanding of this commandment. Besides understanding one needs to feel and experience the undeniable feeling and awesome realization of entering into an everlasting covenant with the creator.

You see, without G-d in the big picture, this ritual can be viewed as barbaric , anti-intellectual and even naive, but when you have G-d and you believe in him and you follow his commandment for thousands of years, everything makes sense, and everything is beautiful, noble, important and significant.

[paulb]

Hey Saul, do the jews still circumcise today?
What % would you say practice this 2000 yr old out dated ritual?

[orbital]

The other Rabbi is not a real Rabbi because he is reform, and perhaps a heretic himself.

Rabbi Boteach debated in a great manner, asking great questions and bringing towering points to the discussions. What did Hitchy did besides cast some stupid jokes , talking like an arrogant moron who thinks he rules the world. The Rabbi, if you listen carefully asked extremly strong questions...

Can you answer them?

Which ones?

The problem with Rabbi's point of view is he is asking the questions from the wrong perspective. That's why I said he is preaching rather than debating. He can't even see how ridiculous the question "Why is it that there is life only on earth and nowhere else? If the earth was tilted a few more degrees to that side... or if the moon was just a little closer... etc.." is. This is not even a question. I mean what does it even mean? What would it matter if the same conditions were met in another galaxy in another solar system on another planet and we lived there? HE would still ask the same question. It is because all these conditions are met here that he is on that podium talking.

And you know what's also sad?

Christopher Hitchens is Jewish:

So am I. What does that have to do with anything? Why do you think that all Jews should believe in God or a religion?

[Operahaven]

They lied to you about that to make you emotionally dependent and influenceable. It's just primitive tribalism, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

True but it's more than that...

Circumcision is abhorrent sexual torture, and its only purpose is to decrease sexual sensation...... Plain and simple.

Jewish and Muslim leaders really take to this practice because they are also vociferous supporters of sexual suppression.

It is astounding to me at how muted our American society is on this totally and medically pointless procedure.

It doesn't take much to realize that nature didn't intend the foreskin and the penis to be separated at birth. Try retracting the foreskin of a newborn's penis and you're struck by the steadfast tenacious grip it has on the glans or head. The foreskin is sealed to its bounty like a silo, and only slowly, over the years, yields to full retractability. But it's far more than just a sheath. The foreskin contains thousands of highly sensitive sensory receptors called Meissner corpuscles, which are more abundant there than in any other part...

I've never been able to understand how parents can agree to do it. Pure evil. The babies scream when it is done. That is because it is horrifying and painful, and we keep doing it generation after generation because of sexual taboo... Purely optional, with deadening of the member the only result.

[paulb]

True but it's more than that...

Circumcision is abhorrent sexual torture, and its only purpose is to decrease sexual sensation...... Plain and simple.

Jewish and Muslim leaders really take to this practice because they are also vociferous supporters of sexual suppression.

It is astounding to me at how muted our American society is on this totally and medically pointless procedure.

It doesn't take much to realize that nature didn't intend the foreskin and the penis to be separated at birth. Try retracting the foreskin of a newborn's penis and you're struck by the steadfast tenacious grip it has on the glans or head. The foreskin is sealed to its bounty like a silo, and only slowly, over the years, yields to full retractability. But it's far more than just a sheath. The foreskin contains thousands of highly sensitive sensory receptors called Meissner corpuscles, which are more abundant there than in any other part...

I've never been able to understand how parents can agree to do it. Pure evil. The babies scream when it is done. That is because it is horrifying and painful, and we keep doing it generation after generation because of sexual taboo... Purely optional, with deadening of the member the only result.

Concise and to the point.
Do you know how many jews or muslims practice this barbaric crime against human nature today?

From your post, i can understand why, at least in part, God told abraham to initiate this custom or ritual. from a  psycho/spiritual perspective that is.

btw don't bring up the african muslim community's circumcision on women, its too heart rending.  Though not practiced widely, (Thank God), the results are more destructive than the procedure on males.

[Norbeone]

There is turning back for Saul. His last post is actually pretty terrifying.

[Operahaven]

Well , the only reason we do it, is because G-d had commanded us to perform this ritual. You, M, do not believe in G-d, therefore you cant understand why someone would agree to have a circumcision. But for the believing Jew, who believes and knows that the G-d of the universe had commanded his forefather Abraham with this commandment and later on wrote in the Torah that all Jews on the eight day of their birth should enter the covenant through this ritual, it makes perfect sense. Whether it has medical benefits is a non-issue. Whether abstaining from eating pork is healthy or not, makes no difference for the faithful Jew who believes in the almighty.

Remember one thing M, that you are not Jewish, and you have no idea what it means to be a Jew, you also do not know or appreciate the beauty of the Torah, its depth and wisdom. You are an outsider who uses his extremely limited understanding and comprehension of the Torah way of life, to view every single commandment as a burden and as a great toil. But its easy to cast insults and criticize from the outside, when the full picture and the essence of the concepts of Judaism are only virtual in your mind , never materialized or lived through in real life.

Even if  you understood the great and pivotal significance of this commandment to the Jewish people, you would still had a blurred and fogy vision and understanding of this commandment. Besides understanding one needs to feel and experience the undeniable feeling and awesome realization of entering into an everlasting covenant with the creator.

You see, without G-d in the big picture, this ritual can be viewed as barbaric , anti-intellectual and even naive, but when you have G-d and you believe in him and you follow his commandment for thousands of years, everything makes sense, and everything is beautiful, noble, important and significant.

Saul,

Your religious beliefs do not alter the fact that the majority of the world's civilized peoples consider neonatal circumcision to be criminal assault - a ghastly, unnecessary barbaric act imposed on innocent and helpless victims.

[Operahaven]

Do you know how many jews or muslims practice this barbaric crime against human nature today?

I'm not sure but look at this way:

Every 26 seconds a circumcision is performed in the United States..... This is in sharp contrast with the rest of the world, where over 80% of the male population are left whole and intact including all of Europe, most of non-Muslim Asia and Latin America as nature designed them before the collective wisdom of the mohels, rabbis and imams had a "better" idea....

[ChamberNut]

a ghastly, unnecessary barbaric act imposed on innocent and helpless victims.

Well said!

[Shrunk]

Then there's this revolting story of a mohel who transmitted herpes to three infants, one of whom died, by following the orthodox practice of applying "oral suction" to the penis after circumcision.  I don't know where to start.

[greg]

Then there's this revolting story of a mohel who transmitted herpes to three infants, one of whom died, by following the orthodox practice of applying "oral suction" to the penis after circumcision.  I don't know where to start.

and here's the best line:

"This is a very delicate area, so to speak," said Health Commissioner Thomas R. Frieden.

[paulb]

Every 26 seconds a circumcision is performed in the United States.....

I'm sceptical of this statement.
The birth rate itself might not even be a birth every minute.

[greg]

this is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate

generally, the more civilized/developed a nation is, the lower the birthrate.


i just spelled "civilized" with an s at first..... somehow i must be reading too much stuff written by British people lol