Plantinga: The God Delusion

[Saul]

Hey Saul, do the jews still circumcise today?
What % would you say practice this 2000 yr old out dated ritual?

The vast majority do, even the most secular.

[Saul]

There is turning back for Saul. His last post is actually pretty terrifying.

What's so scary in saying that without G-d not eating pork would seem odd and even naive, but with the faith in the all mighty, his commandment makes sense, for he is G-d and he can command his servants as a King would command his subjects.

Whats so scary?

[paulb]

The vast majority do, even the most secular.

i had to delete what i just wrote

[Ten thumbs]

What worries me is that if God is indeed alive, why does he not say "Hey, pork's safe to eat now. Don't worry about it any more"?
This may sound a little simplistic but why must religions rely solely on ancient writings?

[paulb]

What worries me is that if God is indeed alive, why does he not say "Hey, pork's safe to eat now. Don't worry about it any more"?
This may sound a little simplistic but why must religions rely solely on ancient writings?

this may be a  possible reason.
Of all the meats, pork is the *heaviest* on the blood/digestion.
I rarely eat pork, due to a  past experience  (my fault=undercooked)). even if I eat well cooked bacon, i get some reaction.
I miss the german dish, thin pork chops/sauerkraut/potatoes/white wine.

[PSmith08]

You see, without G-d in the big picture, this ritual can be viewed as barbaric , anti-intellectual and even naive, but when you have G-d and you believe in him and you follow his commandment for thousands of years, everything makes sense, and everything is beautiful, noble, important and significant.

'Let's do the Time Warp again.'

Buddy Holly was not, apparently, singing his very last song.

[Norbeone]

What's so scary in saying that without G-d not eating pork would seem odd and even naive, but with the faith in the all mighty, his commandment makes sense, for he is G-d and he can command his servants as a King would command his subjects.

Whats so scary?

What's scary is that you believe all that to be fact. And that you preach it like a cheap televangelist.

[Shrunk]

What's scary is that you believe all that to be fact. And that you preach it like a cheap televangelist.

What's scarier is that, once you set aside your own sense of morality and rationality, you become beholden to whatever you believe God wants you to do, no matter how irrational or immoral.  Does anyone need to be reminded where this can lead- and has led?

[paulb]

you preach it like a cheap televangelist.

hey jey now.
everyone knows TV *angelists*  ..are not cheap at all.
Why some own 5 planes, 1 of the 5 is a  $20 million Jet
another *TV-angelist* boughta  marbel toliet valued at $60K for her home.
So watch it there buddy, these guys and gals serving *God* are not cheap by any standard.

[71 dB]

Remember one thing M, that you are not Jewish, and you have no idea what it means to be a Jew.

Yes Saul, we don't know what it means to be a Jew but you don't have an idea what it means to be mentally free, an atheist. You don't understand how stupid old religions seem to us. 

[Norbeone]

hey jey now.
everyone knows TV *angelists*  ..are not cheap at all.
Why some own 5 planes, 1 of the 5 is a  $20 million Jet
another *TV-angelist* boughta  marbel toliet valued at $60K for her home.
So watch it there buddy, these guys and gals serving *God* are not cheap by any standard.

True true.   

[Al Moritz]

... don't have an idea what it means to be mentally free, an atheist.

Mentally free? Yeah right.

I don't see how a train of thought as intellectually unconvincing as atheism (trust me, I've seriously tried that thinking) can make you "mentally free".

BTW, don't tell me I need to study science more. I know more about science than almost all atheists on this board (I am a scientist myself). And yes, all the conclusions of mainstream science are a non-issue for me. I just interpret them philosophically very different from atheism.

[Operahaven]

I don't see how a train of thought as intellectually unconvincing as atheism (trust me, I've seriously tried that thinking) can make you "mentally free".

Al,

I agree with you on this one.... How anyone can disbelieve in the existence of  any  supernatural being is beyond me.

[Shrunk]

Al,

I agree with you on this one.... How anyone can disbelieve in the existence of  any  supernatural being is beyond me.

Personally, I don't disbelieve in the existence of God, or any other supernatural being.  There is just, in my view, no evidence that such a being exists, therefore no reason to believe that it does.  I can understand that, for some, there are emotional, psychological, and intellectual benefits to believing that it does exist.  I'm just not one of those people.

I have no problem with Al's strain of belief, which does not blind him to the realities of the universe.  If he finds the idea of a universe that includes God more convincing than one without, who am I to argue?  Just so long as he doesn't start misinterpreting the things his mind and senses tell him about the universe so that they conform to some preconceived idea of the nature of that God. (Not that I think he does.)

The type of belief that Saul espouses, on the other hand, strikes me as mental slavery.     

[Norbeone]

Good post, Shrunk.

[Operahaven]

Personally, I don't disbelieve in the existence of God, or any other supernatural being.  There is just, in my view, no evidence that such a being exists, therefore no reason to believe that it does.  I can understand that, for some, there are emotional, psychological, and intellectual benefits to believing that it does exist.  I'm just not one of those people.

I have no problem with Al's strain of belief, which does not blind him to the realities of the universe.  If he finds the idea of a universe that includes God more convincing than one without, who am I to argue?  Just so long as he doesn't start misinterpreting the things his mind and senses tell him about the universe so that they conform to some preconceived idea of the nature of that God. (Not that I think he does.)

The type of belief that Saul espouses, on the other hand, strikes me as mental slavery.     

Shrunk,

Thanks for expressing it so clearly.

[drogulus]

Mentally free? Yeah right.

     Al, scepticism isn't natural. It's an adaptation, and because it requires, rather than merely permits, that beliefs be warranted by a more or less rigorous process, it actually involves a reduction of freedom. For those of us who don't think the revelation exception can be allowed, we're not free to believe things like other people are. Not without behaving in an unprincipled manner, that is.

     Of course, the less freedom allowed to believe the highly implausible, the more freedom to devote to realistic ideas about the world. I don't want the freedom to believe that witches are made of wood if it comes at the high price of believing there are witches. For that reason, I think "freethinker" is justified, even though in the short run, we're less free, and less irresponsible. The free will of the theist is a form of intellectual libertinism. You should forbid this to yourself, IMO, on the grounds that real freedom requires real responsibility.

[Al Moritz]

Good post, Shrunk.

Good post indeed.

[Al Moritz]

     The free will of the theist is a form of intellectual libertinism. You should forbid this to yourself, IMO, on the grounds that real freedom requires real responsibility.

I am intellectually responsible. That is why I did seriously consider atheism, but found out that it doesn't work for me.

[Ten thumbs]

this may be a  possible reason.
Of all the meats, pork is the *heaviest* on the blood/digestion.
I rarely eat pork, due to a  past experience  (my fault=undercooked)). even if I eat well cooked bacon, i get some reaction.
I miss the german dish, thin pork chops/sauerkraut/potatoes/white wine.

Perhaps it's to redress the balance, as pork is the favored meat in China.