The unimportant news thread

[Karl Henning]

What word is missing from that analysis? Could it be 'consent'?

Your optimism that the 'consent' is unforced is pretty to see

Well, if the prostitute is being forced to prostitute, then that would definitely be a rape. For someone who chooses to make money off of sex, then I don't see how you can say there is a rape involved if they are willing.

Only a tiny percentage of all women in prostitution are there because they freely choose it.  For most, prostitution is not a real choice because physical safety, equal power with buyers, and real alternatives don't exist.  These are the conditions that would permit genuine consent. Most of the 1% who choose prostitution are privileged because of their ethnicity and class and they have escape options.  Poor women and women of color don't have these options.

"We want real jobs, not blowjobs," said a First Nations survivor of prostitution in 2009. Prostitution exploits women's lack of survival options. Research conducted in nine countries found that 89% of all those in prostitution said that they were in prostitution because they had no alternatives for economic survival and that they saw no means of escape. In Indonesia another study found that 96% of those interviewed wanted to escape prostitution. Sex discrimination, poverty, racism and abandonment drive girls into prostitution. Women in prostitution were sexually abused as kids at much higher rates than other women.  So they are defined as 'whores' by rapists when they are little and they then end up in prostitution  – getting paid for the abuse they have grown up with and believing that's all they are good for.

[Karl Henning]

So, yes, the word "consent" was perniciously absent from the analysis, as it can only be applied in a highly qualified sense to most prostitution.

[ibanezmonster]

Let's say a woman who is a prostitute by choice encounters a violent client who forces her to do something she doesn't want to do - would that qualify as rape?  It's not hard to imagine something that happens frequently.

Sure, maybe, depends on what it is. Of course illegal activities could happen if the prostitute's rules aren't respected (you are doing more than what you are paying for, which would be considered stealing as well).

This is one of the dumbest things you've ever written.

Join the Marines and go to the front lines in a war and tell me if it was psychologically difficult and potentially dangerous.

[Todd]

Sure, maybe, depends on what it is. Of course illegal activities could happen if the prostitute's rules aren't respected (you are doing more than what you are paying for, which would be considered stealing as well).

Maybe?  This exposes your lack of understanding.

Join the Marines and go to the front lines in a war and tell me if it was psychologically difficult and potentially dangerous.

Your last post said most jobs out there.  Now you are being intellectually dishonest as well as daft.

[jochanaan]

Let's assume for a moment that there are women who choose, without coercion, to make a living as a prostitute.  They may still not consent to certain kinds of sexual activity, and I cannot imagine any of them consenting to unlimited violence (as opposed to the kind of limited violence that BDSM practitioners engage in).  To force such unwanted "sex" onto a prostitute is indeed rape by any reasonable definition, whether she chose to do prostitution or not.

[Florestan]

Any talk about prostitution being immoral is moot in the country where porn is a legal, multi-billion-dollar business. 

Any rationalization post this factum is a disgusting hypocrisy.

[Karl Henning]

Let's assume for a moment that there are women who choose, without coercion, to make a living as a prostitute.

Per above, a valid assumption for a minuscule percentage of "sex workers."

[jochanaan]

Per above, a valid assumption for a minuscule percentage of "sex workers."

And which researchers have found that "miniscule percentage"?

[ibanezmonster]

Maybe?  This exposes your lack of understanding.

Okay, then, since every word counts...

Sure, maybe, depends on what it is. Of course illegal activities could happen if the prostitute's rules aren't respected (you are doing more than what you are paying for, which would be considered stealing as well).

Your last post said most jobs out there.  Now you are being intellectually dishonest as well as daft.

Do I really need to make a list of all of the dangerous and often psychologically damaging jobs out there?
Firefighter, coal miner, police officer, construction workers on tall buildings, the rest of the military, the list goes on and on but I'd rather not sit here all day trying to come up with a list.

And besides that, to most people working just sucks in general and they have to out of economic necessity. The argument that prostitution takes advantage of women who are poor makes no sense since they could get a regular job like all of the other men in the world out there. Prostitution just opens up another market and job opportunities for women; unless someone is forcing them, it's their choice.

[ibanezmonster]

Any talk about prostitution being immoral is moot in the country where porn is a legal, multi-billion-dollar business. 

Any rationalization post this factum is a disgusting hypocrisy.

I always keep in mind, when it comes to this subject, a clip from either Family Guy or South Park where a transaction with a prostitute finishes taking place and cops barge in, trying to arrest them. Then the guy says, "Oh, actually, we were filming this to make money off of it. It's actually porn." The police officers leave peacefully. 

[Karl Henning]

And which researchers have found that "miniscule percentage"?

Indeed!

[ibanezmonster]

Depends on how you define "rape": if you define it by consent, then it isn't; if you define it by want, then prostitution almost always is.

[Florestan]

I always keep in mind, when it comes to this subject, a clip from either Family Guy or South Park where a transaction with a prostitute finishes taking place and cops barge in, trying to arrest them. Then the guy says, "Oh, actually, we were filming this to make money off of it. It's actually porn." The police officers leave peacefully. 

Well, exactly! 

Unless, and until, the USA as a whole outlaw porn altogether, any talk about prostitution being illegal and immoral will always seems to me as the top of hypocrisy. 

[Karl Henning]

Depends on how you define "rape": if you define it by consent, then it isn't; if you define it by want, then prostitution almost always is.

I see you are concerned to define "rape," but blandly assume that all "consent" is created equal.

Well, exactly! 

Unless, and until, the USA as a whole outlaw porn altogether, any talk about prostitution being illegal and immoral will always seems to me as the top of hypocrisy. 

Well, I am going to disagree that USA not having outlawed porn outright renders me a hypocrite for protesting that prostitution is immoral, and upholding its illegality.

[ibanezmonster]

I see you are concerned to define "rape," but blandly assume that all "consent" is created equal.

That was exactly my point, though. You can consent without wanting (like almost every person that has a job). Almost no one works because they want to.

Well, I am going to disagree that USA not having outlawed porn outright renders me a hypocrite for protesting that prostitution is immoral, and upholding its illegality.

Then you'd have to agree that porn should be illegal, too. 

[Florestan]

IWell, I am going to disagree that USA not having outlawed porn outright renders me a hypocrite for protesting that prostitution is immoral, and upholding its illegality.

You are not a hypocrite, of course. I was painting my statement in much too wide a brush. I shall reformulate it.

You, Karl Henning, are not at all a hypocrite in denouncing the immorality of prostitution, but:

Fact # 1. There are USA states (not all of them) in which prostitution is legal.

and

Fact # 2. There are USA states (all of them) in which porn is legal (am I wrong?).

And that brings us to the main issue: morals and legals are two different matters altogether. Not everything moral is legal, and not everything legal is moral. For a Christian, morality trumps legality and it is in this respect that I side with you: prostitution is immoral even when legal. Porn too,

[Karl Henning]

That was exactly my point, though. You can consent without wanting (like almost every person that has a job). Almost no one works because they want to.

If you do not see the fallacy of your equation there, I doubt I can illuminate it for you.

The statement "Almost no one works because they want to" is also completely false;  I see people every day who want to work.

Take myself:  I want to compose, and it must be considered a type of work.  Of course, the job to which I report everty day is a different sort of job;  but it is also work I want to do.  Now, let me give you some credit for imagination:  what do you suppose are three possible reasons why I want to work, even at this job which is not composition?

Then you'd have to agree that porn should be illegal, too. 

Aye, just so.

[Karl Henning]

For a Christian, morality trumps legality and it is in this respect that I side with you: prostitution is immoral even when legal. Porn too,

Exactly so, brother.

[Todd]

Do I really need to make a list of all of the dangerous and often psychologically damaging jobs out there? Firefighter, coal miner, police officer, construction workers on tall buildings, the rest of the military, the list goes on and on but I'd rather not sit here all day trying to come up with a list.

You see, you are intellectually dishonest, or perhaps incapable of understanding what the word "most" means. 

And besides that, to most people working just sucks in general and they have to out of economic necessity.

You are confusing your outlook with how other people view work.  What evidence do you have that most people (eg, >50% of all people, or >50% of all working people, take your pick) think work "just sucks in general"? 

I do acknowledge that it is true that a lot of people work out of economic necessity.  That's called life.

[Florestan]

Exactly so, brother.

Aye!

But then again: Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone. Porn is the prime example of supply creating the demand.