Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

[schnittkease]

It seems to me (perhaps somewhat optimistically) that it may be within the gift of Schnittke's music to appeal to quite a wide public one day, at least maybe some of the more overtly fractured stuff.
Quite aside from it's ear-catching and distinctive qualities, people can sometimes take to the haunted underdog battling against a crazy world, even though the world be an internal one. They are perhaps grateful that someone can be so uncompromising, so emotionally bare-chested in a superficial, cosmetic world. And really when some of the results are as sensationally beautiful as this, there seems potential ... anyway, nice to pick up one's pipe and dream.

Amen!

[vers la flamme]

You find his Cello Concerto No. 1 dark and difficult?  It's no darker or more difficult than any other 20th century cello concerto and is in fact transformative.  The darkness becomes light so it has more in common with something like Mahler.  Listen again but let it take you on a journey from start to finish.  It is fantastic.

You don't think so? I found it a lot darker than, say, Lutoslawski's or Dutilleux's. (I'm not a big cello concerto guy, so I don't know the repertoire apart from a few big names.) But since you say all that with conviction, I'll make it a point to listen again today. I don't doubt that it's a very powerful work, but I found it challenging on first listen.

I'll make it a point to check out the works that have been mentioned to me: 4th symphony, Requiem, piano quintet, 2nd SQ, etc.

[Karl Henning]

You don't think so? I found it a lot darker than, say, Lutoslawski's or Dutilleux's. (I'm not a big cello concerto guy, so I don't know the repertoire apart from a few big names.) But since you say all that with conviction, I'll make it a point to listen again today. I don't doubt that it's a very powerful work, but I found it challenging on first listen.

I'll make it a point to check out the works that have been mentioned to me: 4th symphony, Requiem, piano quintet, 2nd SQ, etc.

Once the Fourth Symphony has fixed you with its glittering eye, so to speak, you will run, not walk to hear the Choir Concerto. Just saying.

[vers la flamme]

One of the most admirable qualities about Schnittke's music is the truthfulness of it. He doesn't cater to popular taste and he always expressed himself in a way that may be difficult to understand at first, but over time, I do believe a listener can grasp his style or I should say styles. I wouldn't say his Cello Concerto No. 1 is any more challenging than Lutoslawski's or even Barber's. There is a lot of heart in the work and, as another member pointed out, it's a transformative experience --- the music goes from one of the most doom-laded sound-worlds you can imagine to a light-filled landscape full of hope and dreams. The journey is, for me, one of immense pleasure, because it does feel like one has been to hell and back, but in the musical sense of course. If I were you I'd give the Requiem a listen and then follow that with Symphony No. 4. If you get nothing from either work, then take some time off from Schnittke and come back later. Sometimes a bit of time away can do wonders.

(removed image of the Okko Kamu/Stockholm Sinfonietta Schnittke 4th on BIS)

What say you, is BIS the way to go for Schnittke's symphonies...?

[Mirror Image]

What say you, is BIS the way to go for Schnittke's symphonies...?

Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good. Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered. Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies. Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.

[vers la flamme]

Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good. Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered. Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies. Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.

It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)

Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.

[Mirror Image]

It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)

Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.

Very good to hear. That Kamu recording is fantastic and I like how it's paired with the Requiem. Much of Schnittke's music is dark, so I don't really see this descriptor holding any kind of critical weight unless this particular element of his music turns you away in some way. Many of his critics, especially during his heyday, have said his music is nothing more than a reflection of the Soviet artistic environment he was a part of. I don't really understand that particular critique because I don't really hear this, what I do hear is a man trying to express himself in the most honest way he knows how. I think what people don't want to hear is a composer that actually has his fingertip on the pulse of our workaday lives. For me, his music is a reflection of how far we've come, but also how far we have to go as human beings.

[schnittkease]

Some of them, not all of them. I'm not too thrilled with the performances of Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 as Polyansky on Chandos does a much better job, IMHO. I can't say anything good about the performance of Symphony No. 8 either as I've always been under the spell of Rozhdestvensky in this symphony and consider it a bigger dose of reality than what Polyansky or Lu Jia (on BIS) bring to the musical table. I'm one of those people who just can't seem to get into Symphony No. 1 as I consider it more gimmicky than anything of substance, but the Segerstam on BIS is the way to go in this symphony, IMHO. Segerstam is also very strong in Symphony No. 2, "St. Florian", but I think Polyansky is equally as good. Symphony No. 3 under Klas (BIS) hasn't been bettered. Symphony No. 4 under Kamu (BIS) is my favorite of the three performances I've heard. I think Kamu conjures up a certain atmosphere in this symphony that's quite remarkable and almost makes me wish he'd had conducted all of the symphonies. Concerto Grosso No. 4, "Symphony No. 5" is expertly conducted, again, by Klas, but Chailly recorded this symphony with the Royal Concertgebouw (on Decca) and it is also an outstanding performance. So, as you can read, there are some good things about the BIS series of symphonies (mostly the early symphonies), but the later ones failed to engage like the afore mentioned performances did. I hope this fragmented reply helps you in some way.

I agree with most of this. As a rule of thumb, if Rozhdestvensky recorded it, it's probably definitive. This includes Symphony No. 1, which MI is completely wrong about!    Segerstam is too tame! It's a rollercoaster—brash, witty, depressing, profound (come to think of it, these four words pretty much sum up all of Schnittke's output). This is also Schnittke's first major work and serves as a prototype for what would become the polystylism synonymous with him (but it's a glorious prototype at that).

https://www.youtube.com/v/QoaTVgvxm-M

Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.

It is extremely dark, but those last two movements are otherworldly. Schnittke's late works are even more austere and do not give you an immediate "reward," so to speak. (Think of late Nono.) Some of these, like Symphony No. 8, are just as good as the earlier stuff.

Many of his critics, especially during his heyday, have said his music is nothing more than a reflection of the Soviet artistic environment he was a part of. I don't really understand that particular critique because I don't really hear this, what I do hear is a man trying to express himself in the most honest way he knows how. I think what people don't want to hear is a composer that actually has his fingertip on the pulse of our workaday lives. For me, his music is a reflection of how far we've come, but also how far we have to go as human beings.

Nothing to add. Extremely well put.

[Karl Henning]

It helps. I listened to a bit of the Polyansky Schnittke 4th and then some of the Kamu, and thought the Kamu better. I ordered the CD since I saw one going for cheap on ebay. (I figure you can never go wrong with BIS...)

Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.

I don't absolutely say that Kamu may not be yet better in the Fourth, but the Polyansky recording was the one which inspired my love for the Fourth. Schnittkease feels, I shall extrapolate, that the Rozhdestvensky recording of Fourth is the definitive one, I shan't contest that, either, but only note that Polyansky was the choirmaster for the Rozhdestvensky recording.
M
The fact is, I love all three recordings of the Fourth. And I don't care who knows it. 

[Mirror Image]

I agree with most of this. As a rule of thumb, if Rozhdestvensky recorded it, it's probably definitive. This includes Symphony No. 1, which MI is completely wrong about!    Segerstam is too tame! It's a rollercoaster—brash, witty, depressing, profound (come to think of it, these four words pretty much sum up all of Schnittke's output). This is also Schnittke's first major work and serves as a prototype for what would become the polystylism synonymous with him (but it's a glorious prototype at that).

https://www.youtube.com/v/QoaTVgvxm-M

It is extremely dark, but those last two movements are otherworldly. Schnittke's late works are even more austere and do not give you an immediate "reward," so to speak. (Think of late Nono.) Some of these, like Symphony No. 8, are just as good as the earlier stuff.

Nothing to add. Extremely well put.

On your recommendation (which, I presume is, indeed, a recommendation), I'm going to pull out my Rozhdestvensky recordings of Schnittke (or, at least, the ones I own) and give them a spin. I already love his recording of the 8th with the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic on Chandos. I should go a bit more easy on the 1st --- it does have some remarkable sonorities and is completely zany as you suggest.

[schnittkease]

Well, there are exceptions to this "Rozhdestvensky rule." Polyansky's No. 4 is great as well and I prefer Chailly to R. in No. 5.

Just my opinion!

[steve ridgway]

I have been sucked in by the Concerto Grosso 3 at https://archive.org/details/AlfredSchnittke-concertoGrossot.3 - anyone know which recording it is? Sounds like a vinyl release. I've never been keen on the popular classics but love the small doses mixed in here and the way they turn into something completely different.

Having now read through this whole thread there are clearly many works to explore but I'm going to take it fairly slowly, have so far just added this

[asin]B000025WUA[/asin]

which was also highly enjoyable and the next CD is now on order -

[asin]B000025460[/asin]

[Maestro267]

I am loving how active this thread has been lately!

Well I listened to the cello concerto again. I was really, really impressed, what an amazing piece... but I still found it extremely dark. The final movement was beautiful, transformative, yes, but not exactly uplifting. Am I really alone in this...? Anyway, I'll be listening to it again at least once more this week. I was blown away.

Not all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.

[Karl Henning]

Well, there are exceptions to this "Rozhdestvensky rule." Polyansky's No. 4 is great as well and I prefer Chailly to R. in No. 5.

Just my opinion!

Fair enow.

[Mirror Image]

I am loving how active this thread has been lately!

Me too! Always good to see a composer who I believe is worthy of the praise get more discussion time.

Not all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.

This is true, but I think, first and foremost, a listener must be allured by the sound of the music before they can truly appreciate it. Once that attraction has been established, it's just a question of listening with an open-mind.

[vers la flamme]

I am loving how active this thread has been lately!

Not all music is meant to be uplifting or relaxing or high-spirited. There can be incredible, profound and yes, transforming beauty in the darkness. One of the best things about music is how it can challenge you, make you perceive the world, and sometimes even yourself, in a new light.

Couldn't agree more. The darker, the better.

If you read into my previous post that I was disappointed that the cello concerto was not uplifting, that is not at all what I meant. I was replying to another poster who seemed to indicate that he thought the music was uplifting and not dark at all.

[vers la flamme]

This is a pretty damn fine CD I think. I really enjoy the Cello & Piano sonata that is included. Quite tempestuous, very serious and mysterious music. When this CD was released, there was only one cello concerto and I believe only one cello & piano sonata from Schnittke (there has since been another of those, right?) – I have no doubt in my mind that Schnittke was one of a small handful of major composers of his time and a creative genius. What an original mind... I am excited to explore further the 4th symphony and the requiem. I may have to pick up the Rozhdestvensky CD with the first symphony too, though I expect that will be a challenging work. I listened to the first couple of movements on the way to work today and was blown away.

[steve ridgway]

The two long pieces on this clicked with me straight away so my exploration of Schnittke is not over yet  .

[asin]B000025460[/asin]

[vers la flamme]

I just got this in the mail:



... very excited to explore the music further. I'm curious, though, what is Schnittke's shortest, and most easily digestible symphony? Does such a thing exist? With Mahler, it took hearing his fourth symphony, one of the shortest and most lyrical of his works, to become a fan of his, though I now prefer his more sprawling, all-encompassing works. I suspect similar will occur with Schnittke who also wrote massive symphonies, albeit in a completely different idiom.

The cello concerto is amazing, by the way. Must be one of the best works in the repertoire for that instrument. Really enjoying it lately.

[bhodges]

The two long pieces on this clicked with me straight away so my exploration of Schnittke is not over yet  .

[asin]B000025460[/asin]

Is one of those two the Fourth Violin Concerto? I have heard the Kremer/Eschenbach/COE version below, which is terrific (as are the other three).

[Asin]B00004Z44N[/asin]

--Bruce