Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)

[Grazioso]

Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated.  It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.

However, it's not impossible for the majority to be deluded en masse.

[DavidW]

Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated.  It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.

You can also turn that around.

"Someone in another thread recently claimed that Le Sacre is a masterpiece.  It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find to be of little value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement."

And before you say it is not true, you certainly can find many conservative musicians that don't respect that piece.  It amuses me to do that...

But the real problem is that you turn voicing an opinion into an act of disrespect for the entire music community.  You create a hostile environment where whenever someone voices an opinion contrary to what you hold you accuse them of thumbing their nose at a community of unknown "professional musicians" that are I guess supposed to be outraged and upset at the opinion.  Karl, do you have to do that every single time someone disagrees with you?  It's tiring.

[Scarpia]

If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?"   I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke.  I came to know of his existence because before discussion boards one way to find out about obscure composers was to see what music was being recorded by adventurous labels like BIS, and BIS was releasing a lot of music by a composer with the funny name "Schnittke."  I got one and it was really odd, but made me curious to hear more.  Later I encountered a few threads on fora such as this one with enthusiastic discussion, and recordings by very prominent musicians (the sort that can pressure their record label into recording something off the beaten path).  So if Schnittke is being hyped it is by people like Yuri Bashmet and Gidon Kremer, and they hype it by playing the music. 

[Grazioso]

Well, surely even the majority isn't so deluded as tp place anything by Schnittke on a foot of equality with The Rite of Spring (?)

The use and misuse and abuse of the past by Alfred Schnittke: just as scandalous, just as egregious as in Arvo Part - and just as tastelessly done.
What they have done, these post-Soviet, post modern, post punk, post-genius, post-creative composers (Silvestrov and Kancheli also do it) is invent a new cliche, where the past is given a cheaply senstimentalist slant, while the present - modernity - is made to seem unpleasant, aggressive & ugly. Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times.

"Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times."

In fairness, that's been the basic drift of high culture since the great Modernist break early last century and the Postmodernism that followed in its wake. Can you imagine people today honestly, and without self-consciousness, embracing the sentiments of Romantic era, for example? We live in an age where people feel themselves too knowing, too sophisticated, too cool to believe in anything without injecting irony or arrogance into the mix. (And I don't assert that the composers you mentioned fall prey to that, merely that they'd be in keeping with the times if they did.)

(Btw, Part served his time in the modernist salt mines and wrote more than a few seemingly "unpleasant, aggressive & ugly" works before he developed the style he's known for.)

[DavidW]

If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?"   

I always interpret an expression of "overhyped" as by fellow forumites.  Certainly can't apply to the audience as a whole which listens mostly to classical lite fm nor to the critics who dole out positive criticism towards lesser unknown composers equally without bias.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?"   I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke. 

If you mean critics and general media buzz, I can think of very few contemporary composers who are hyped, to say nothing of "overhyped." Maybe John Adams, or Osvaldo Golijov, fit into this category, and to a certain extent Elliott Carter (tho' in his case his extreme old age is a factor - there's a freak-show aspect to it: "look at the 100-yr. old guy writing atonalist music!"). And there was earlier hype for Philip Glass and some of the "holy minimalists," including Part.

But Schnittke? In his case, such "hype" is produced mainly by the musicians playing him and the fans listening to him (like on this board).

[karlhenning]

However, it's not impossible for the majority to be deluded en masse.

In such a case, I do believe it impossible. Because we are not talking about an undifferentiated mass, in an irrational (or supra-rational) situation, reacting to herd instinct.  We are talking about a great variety of data points, if you like, people from different backgrounds and with different degrees of artistic expertise (in the first place) and including a significant minority consisting of some of the world's greatest musicians.

That's all Point 1.

Point 2 is the perennial, if you don't like something as well as someone else likes it, why not be even and honest, and say, you don't like something as well as someone else likes it.  Why the need to build the sand-castle of pretense that one's opinion is somehow an Entity of Truth out in the world?  Why the "overrated" gambit?  I'm with (poco) Sfz on that:  it's the "overrated!" whiners who are the tiresome crowd.

What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.

[karlhenning]

If someone wishes to claim that Schnittke is "overhyped" or "overrated" my question is "by whom?"   I don't recall ever being exposed to any "hype" of Schnittke.  I came to know of his existence because before discussion boards one way to find out about obscure composers was to see what music was being recorded by adventurous labels like BIS, and BIS was releasing a lot of music by a composer with the funny name "Schnittke."  I got one and it was really odd, but made me curious to hear more.  Later I encountered a few threads on fora such as this one with enthusiastic discussion, and recordings by very prominent musicians (the sort that can pressure their record label into recording something off the beaten path).  So if Schnittke is being hyped it is by people like Yuri Bashmet and Gidon Kremer, and they hype it by playing the music.

Good point. And again, what is really going on, when somebody takes (what I should think is qiute a normal and characteristic activity in the musical world) of a performer who champions a composer, and not with lip-service, but by "eating the cooking," i.e., going out in the trenches and presenting the music by his own musical efforts — and smearing that as "hype"?

[karlhenning]

But the real problem is that you turn voicing an opinion into an act of disrespect for the entire music community.  You create a hostile environment where whenever someone voices an opinion contrary to what you hold you accuse them of thumbing their nose at a community of unknown "professional musicians" that are I guess supposed to be outraged and upset at the opinion.  Karl, do you have to do that every single time someone disagrees with you?  It's tiring.

My dear chap, let them no longer remain an anonymous undifferentiated crowd of "professional musicians"! By all means.

The list of musical professionals who are on record as finding Le sacre a great work of art includes (but is not restricted to):

Claudio Abbado
Ernest Ansermet
Pierre Boulez
Leonard Bernstein
Elliott Carter
Robert Craft
Richard Taruskin
Charles Wuorinen

I'll leave the list short, rather than pile on.

But my point is not that these musicians are "insulted." My point is, sure, Eric Anderson sure has his musical head on straight, where all the above whom I've listed are either chumps are snake-oil pushers.

Again, if one doesn't like a piece of music which someone else likes, why not do the decent and honorable thing, and simply say, "I don't like it." Just the fact that I don't like a piece which many others do, does not merit the "overrated" card.

[DavidW]

where all the above whom I've listed are either chumps are snake-oil pushers.

And yet I think that merely invoking the word "overrated" is not meant to denigrate that long list of musicians.  95% of the time when someone says work X is overrated that poster means "on this forum you've overly praised this work which I don't admire as much as you do."  And it's a valid point, there is no reason to call a ban on the word.

I like it that you acknowledge that no one is out to denigrate anyone that likes Le Sacre... but then you say that it's the same as calling that list a bunch of "chumps or snake-oil pushers".  What I'm getting at is that it is bull, and a cheap fallacy to invoke time after time.  Nobody means that unless they say it.  Please don't infer that every time someone shits on a work or a composer you like.

For all you know the next one that says that Le Sacre is overrated will follow up with "I wish the octet was performed as often" and then you would feel rather silly for imagining them as Eric A screaming "pleasure is the law! down with modernity! the people have spoken!!"

[Grazioso]

Why even take issue with someone playing the "overhyped" or "overrated" card? Whether using it or reacting to it, it just means people are letting their emotions mingle with the facts. Let's be honest: whether someone is intent on knocking down or defending a composer, they're just trying to stroke their ego, trying to bolster their own doubts, or argue because, well, it's fun Who's trying to objectively, dispassionately, scientifically establish these rankings and ratings purely for the good of mankind? No one here.

That said,

What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.

Scurrilous and scandalous, Sir! Had I not a most pressing Engagement with my tailor, I should likely have had to demand Satisfaction. 

[DavidW]

I agree with you Grazioso, but I'll add that also if many serious listeners, perhaps even musicians, shared your taste, wouldn't you also feel like it was a good ego stroking too?

[Grazioso]

I agree with you Grazioso, but I'll add that also if many serious listeners, perhaps even musicians, shared your taste, wouldn't you also feel like it was a good ego stroking too?

Ego stroking? Heck, if both Pierre Boulez and Leonard Bernstein liked it, that would be like an ego hard-on! 

[Luke]

Well, surely even the majority isn't so deluded as tp place anything by Schnittke on a foot of equality with The Rite of Spring (?)

The use and misuse and abuse of the past by Alfred Schnittke: just as scandalous, just as egregious as in Arvo Part - and just as tastelessly done.
What they have done, these post-Soviet, post modern, post punk, post-genius, post-creative composers (Silvestrov and Kancheli also do it) is invent a new cliche, where the past is given a cheaply senstimentalist slant, while the present - modernity - is made to seem unpleasant, aggressive & ugly. Then they endlessly oppose the two, as if contrast, conflict & discontinuity were all there was to modern times.

Whether one has any time for Schnittke, Part, Kancheli, Silvestrov etc is beside the point here - I only want to point out that this description doesn't hold true for Part, except in a couple of transitional pieces from the early 70s. Despite the fact that his mature music seems on the surface to be so imbued with the spirit of early music, there is almost nothing in it which derives from that music, technically; his style and technique are self-sufficient, complete in themselves and utterly non-referential. The same cannot be said for Silvestrov, Kancheli and Schnittke, so I suppose if you have an issue with this sort of thing you will have an issue with them too, as you seem to. My point is merely that what you describe doesn't actually apply to Part.

[CRCulver]

I only want to point out that this description doesn't hold true for Part, except in a couple of transitional pieces from the early 70s. Despite the fact that his mature music seems on the surface to be so imbued with the spirit of early music, there is almost nothing in it which derives from that music, technically; his style and technique are self-sufficient, complete in themselves and utterly non-referential.

That might be true for the first couple of decades of the tintinnabuli style, but over the last decade Part has established a dialogue with tradition as strong as the other nostalgic ex-Soviet composers. Even elements of Brahms popping up in his latest orchestral works (yuck).

[Mirror Image]

Well, that's a bit of sophistry, isn't it? Like somehow in another thread recently claiming that Le sacre is overrated.  It is a claim that in the case of something which many people, including professional musicians, find of compelling artistic value, they're all mistaken, but that (miraculously) the truth has been granted to you, and you perceive better than they the true value of the art under advisement.

Schnittke is a composer whom I was suggested to by others, of course, nobody really knows how one is going to take the music. Sometimes if I like x composer, then I would seemingly like y composer, but it doesn't always work this way. A person can dislike Bartok and love Stravinsky, vice versa, or love both. It's all a matter of how the music hits us. Do I bring my emotions into my listening experience? Absolutely, because, for me, music should get some kind of rise out of me, which is why I listen to and like the composer I like. Sometimes it takes several listens of course, because not everything is laid out in front of you, which is why I'm not completely giving up hope on Schnittke, but taking a break from him right now. Time away from a composer has proven to be a great healer for me.

[karlhenning]

Time away when you the music doesn't 'click' for you, is good sense.

FWIW, there are a couple of Schnittke pieces which don't much do anything for me. But, I think very well indeed, of pieces more numerous than those that have struck me as 'duds'.

[Scarpia]

Time away when you the music doesn't 'click' for you, is good sense.

FWIW, there are a couple of Schnittke pieces which don't much do anything for me. But, I think very well indeed, of pieces more numerous than those that have struck me as 'duds'.

At the moment my favorite pieces of Schnittke are the piano concerti.

[lescamil]

At the moment my favorite pieces of Schnittke are the piano concerti.

Does that include the early Piano Concerto No. 1? I personally love all three of them, too. They could not be more different from each other, but they all are knockouts and should be performed more often. Also, as a pianist, I can really appreciate the piano writing in them and I could see myself learning one of them.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

What's overrated, is rediscovered mediocrities from the 18th and 19th centuries being touted as The World's Brilliant Composers, because, gosh, the tunes are likeable, and granny can hum 'em.

Scurrilous and scandalous, Sir! Had I not a most pressing Engagement with my tailor, I should likely have had to demand Satisfaction. 

Yes, that comment was a bit of straw-mannery. One doesn't have to be among the "World's Brilliant Composers" to be worth hearing. And "granny" is hardly relevant here.