Hitler's Artwork

[M forever]

Hitler was made more by influential supporters for calculated political reasons than he made himself. Of course, he and his followers made it appear like he did, that's part of the show. And obviously, once he was actually in power, the whole thing escalated beyond what even his "calculating" supporters had thought possible (in other words, the not-quite-so-extreme right wing had wanted to use him as a counterweight to the extreme left wing, but they didn't want to elevate him to total power). The way he and his followers took advantage of the situation was viciously clever and yes, that was a "quality" of him and his people which made a difference in the given situation, but again, without that given situation, he would never have come that far. Many people also overestimate how much power he actually had in the 3rd Reich. In theory, absolute power, but in reality, he didn't take part in what was going on much, it was more a mechanism that had been triggered and that had developed its own life. He was still the biggest wheel in that mechanism, but not necessarily the all-powerful "decider".

[PSmith08]

Yeah, I don't much care for Wagner either.

I don't necessarily consider dominating dinner-time conversation at Wahnfried as being quite 'tyrannical.'

[Shrunk]

It is very interesting to note that all these dictators did have very high artistic and/or "spiritual" goals they failed to achieve....  This is what this kind of person looks like. They aren't like the evil guys in movies.

It's struck me that some artistic individuals are subject to a sort of sublimated psychopathy, in the sense that they believe the world need not be accepted as it is, but can be altered to better suit their desires.  And perhaps the sublimation is less likely to stick in those who lack the talent to truly succeed as artists.

[greg]

No, that priest thing, that was Stalin. It is very interesting to note that all these dictators did have very high artistic and/or "spiritual" goals they failed to achieve, just like I pointed out that one of our resident fanatics here, our good friend Saul also has this inclination towards cheap postcard kitsch art and pseudo-romantic copycat music, and that all fits in very nicely with his simplistic and extremist views. This is what this kind of person looks like. They aren't like the evil guys in movies.

that's an interesting observation......

i bet Saul would do well as a non-formalist composer in Russia.

[m_gigena]

Nor was he an ignorant peasant-wise, purblind man as has been taught for a long time in Western Europe.

In South America, a common practice was telling children with bad behavior Stalin ate toddlers, and that he would come after them should they not behave properly.

[greg]

In South America, a common practice was telling children with bad behavior Stalin ate toddlers, and that he would come after them should they not behave properly.

I wonder if that ever worked. If it did, his death didn't help much.

[m_gigena]

I wonder if that ever worked. If it did, his death didn't help much.

Granma says she was really afraid of the man. Really.

[Solitary Wanderer]

I don't necessarily consider dominating dinner-time conversation at Wahnfried as being quite 'tyrannical.'

[Saul]

http://www.snyderstreasures.net/pages/hartworks.htm

Beautiful stuff!  I had no idea...

How would you have liked it,marazm if someone would have sent you an email with the art work of the murderer who murdered your brothers, sisters , and parents?


And that someone would have added... Gee.. marzam... I had no idea the murderer of your family was so talented...

But .. for a souless person such as you.. I doubt it would have made a difference...

[Saul]

Hitler was made more by influential supporters for calculated political reasons than he made himself. Of course, he and his followers made it appear like he did, that's part of the show. And obviously, once he was actually in power, the whole thing escalated beyond what even his "calculating" supporters had thought possible (in other words, the not-quite-so-extreme right wing had wanted to use him as a counterweight to the extreme left wing, but they didn't want to elevate him to total power). The way he and his followers took advantage of the situation was viciously clever and yes, that was a "quality" of him and his people which made a difference in the given situation, but again, without that given situation, he would never have come that far. Many people also overestimate how much power he actually had in the 3rd Reich. In theory, absolute power, but in reality, he didn't take part in what was going on much, it was more a mechanism that had been triggered and that had developed its own life. He was still the biggest wheel in that mechanism, but not necessarily the all-powerful "decider".

All the more helping Goldhagen's proven research that the regular German citizen took an active part in the murders without anyone forcing him/her to do so.

[paulb]

Hitler was made more by influential supporters for calculated political reasons than he made himself. Of course, he and his followers made it appear like he did, that's part of the show. And obviously, once he was actually in power, the whole thing escalated beyond what even his "calculating" supporters had thought possible (in other words, the not-quite-so-extreme right wing had wanted to use him as a counterweight to the extreme left wing, but they didn't want to elevate him to total power). The way he and his followers took advantage of the situation was viciously clever and yes, that was a "quality" of him and his people which made a difference in the given situation, but again, without that given situation, he would never have come that far. Many people also overestimate how much power he actually had in the 3rd Reich. In theory, absolute power, but in reality, he didn't take part in what was going on much, it was more a mechanism that had been triggered and that had developed its own life. He was still the biggest wheel in that mechanism, but not necessarily the all-powerful "decider".

Interesting, that Hitler was the main wheel in the machine, but there were other wheels that supported his tricky schemes, perpetrated behind the germany's backs.

M what I would like to know is the hows and whys the germans worked in the factories to build up a  war machine that was doomed to fail.

[paulb]

All the more helping Goldhagen's proven research that the regular German citizen took an active part in the murders without anyone forcing him/her to do so.

Obviously not all german's *participated*,
when the smoke cleared, its a  fact that millions of germans lost their lives in defiance to Hitler's ruthless power.

[Saul]

Obviously not all german's *participated*,
when the smoke cleared, its a  fact that millions of germans lost their lives in defiance to Hitler's ruthless power.

The vast majority , not all.

[Morigan]

I'm surprised to see such animosity over a few paintings, which are not that horrible. I've always considered Hitler as a figure of history... and I usually don't judge history, I take it for what it is.

[Saul]

I'm surprised to see such animosity over a few paintings, which are not that horrible. I've always considered Hitler as a figure of history... and I usually don't judge history, I take it for what it is.

Your simplification is unacceptable.

[Hollywood]

i always wondered that, too..... and weren't the professors there Jewish?

Yes, I believe those University art professors were Jewish.

[knight66]

I'm surprised to see such animosity over a few paintings, which are not that horrible. I've always considered Hitler as a figure of history... and I usually don't judge history, I take it for what it is.

History is not just an academic subject. It is dynamic, it is how we arrived at the point we are at now. It feeds into our identity. Nor is it a cold topic, as can be seen when even ancient history is discussed here. Wounds remain open long after the events. There are always different and passionately held opinions; as there turn out often to be remarkably few 'facts' to hang onto.

Hitler's paintings were unremarkable, competent, pleasant and decorative. There is no strong viewpoint coming through them. They are academic in approach. They are not bad paintings, they are not evil. Most of the ones I saw are landscapes. A number of them are of buildings that disappeared during the war. It is odd that Churchill was also something of a painter. As mentioned, Stalin was a part time poet.

As to pushing the works in the face of the Holocaust descendants. First off, there were lots of non Jews who were badly affected by Hitler's policies, so perhaps ease off on the personal affront Saul. Secondly, you could always stay out of the topic and post something on music, at least for a while....now there's an unusual idea.

Mike

[knight66]

Yes, I believe those University art professors were Jewish.

I am not sure where we are going with this line of thought. I hope no one is going to suggest the Jews brought Hitler's animosity upon them by failing to appreciate his art. I think that would be a facile line of argument. From my memory, about the only art dealer who did try to help Hitler was a Jew. The roots of antisemitism were deeper and much more complex.

Mike

[uffeviking]

Yes, I believe those University art professors were Jewish.

What is the foundation of your belief? You know not only the names of those professors, you also know their race/religion? 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just for the record - there are some theories that see Hitler's antisemitism as a reaction to 1) Alfred Roller (famous for working with Mahler on those great opera productions in Vienna), who didn't find Hitler's work good enough to merit entry to the academy, or to 2) doctor Bloch, the man in charge of the ailing Mrs Hitler, who subsequently died: in this view, Hitler would have blamed doctor Bloch for the death of his mother. Both Roller and Bloch were Jewish. (But after the annexation of Austria in 1938, Hitler gave orders to treat the doctor well...)

I think both theories too easy, too much cause-and-effect. People are more complex than that. Hitler certainly was.