J.S. Bach on the Organ

[prémont]

... Which prompts the question: are there other organists who adhere to an at least broadly HIP approach, who are known for a colorful approach to Bach?

Historically informed players generally opt for transparency and expressive playing (articulation, agogics) more than colour. If you want more colour you must turn to the seminformed romanticists (e.g. Chapuis) or semiinformed traditionalists (e.g. Rogg and Kraft). I think Kraft may be a good choice, even if his recordings are from the 1960es and the sound is a bit dated and also rather reverberant. Send me a PM if you want a few clips.

[PaulSC]

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look into them. I can listen to Kraft on the Naxos Music Library.

Actually, I'm learning to appreciate a more restrained approach to registration in Bach. And when it's color I want, I can always turn to French composers like Corrette, the Couperins, Dandrieu, Grigny, Guilain, and so on.

[milk]

I've gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to anything other than Bach's organ music. After spending a lot of time with Walcha (who is wonderful), I've obtained a few of Wolfgang Rübsam's recordings. I don't see how it's possible to experience this depth of pleasure in any other music. I'm just listening to Rübsam's BWV 663 this morning. It transports me! This is a serious addiction: Bach's organ oeuvre. It just goes on and on. Do I fight it? Or do I just give in? Seriously, is there any other music that reaches these heights?   

[Karl Henning]

Well, this is the right thread for enthusiasm over Bach's organ music, so it would not really be seemly for me to answer your question directly.

I love it all, too, and yet, I find it easy to go back and forth among other musicks.

[Mandryka]

I've gotten to the point where I can no longer listen to anything other than Bach's organ music. After spending a lot of time with Walcha (who is wonderful), I've obtained a few of Wolfgang Rübsam's recordings. I don't see how it's possible to experience this depth of pleasure in any other music. I'm just listening to Rübsam's BWV 663 this morning. It transports me! This is a serious addiction: Bach's organ oeuvre. It just goes on and on. Do I fight it? Or do I just give in? Seriously, is there any other music that reaches these heights?   

Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.

[milk]

Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.

I've obtained Naxos recordings: Clavierubung, Leipzig, and Schubler. I'm just getting started on these. I have the Walcha and Foccroulle box sets as well. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try the Buxtehude recording.   

[milk]

Naxos or Philips?  As a Bach antedote youy may want to try his Buxtehude CD on Naxos --  the Te Deum especially.

I haven't gotten to Buxtehude yet but I've downloaded some recordings from the Bach Berlin Silbermann series: Volumes 2,3,8 and 9.
I really love these. I'm enthralled with the sound of the Silbermanns. I also obtained Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III recording.
I don't know why Suzuki isn't sticking to me so much.
I think he's been praised a lot here - and I'll have a chance to hear him live on organ and harpsichord in July. I only really have subjective
comments to make here but I'm making them anyway. These days I'm thriving on Foccroulle, Walcha II, Rubsam (Naxos), and now also Albrecht, Otto,
Kohler, Piasetzki and Kastner. I've not been, as yet, drawn to the Suzuki, Herrick or Weinberger recordings I own. These days I feel like this music encompasses
all of human experience. I really don't understand how one person could have done so much. I don't know, maybe I'm delusional. But there was a time when
I tried to listen to this music and didn't like it at all.

[Sammy]

I haven't gotten to Buxtehude yet but I've downloaded some recordings from the Bach Berlin Silbermann series: Volumes 2,3,8 and 9.
I really love these. I'm enthralled with the sound of the Silbermanns. I also obtained Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III recording.
I don't know why Suzuki isn't sticking to me so much.
I think he's been praised a lot here - and I'll have a chance to hear him live on organ and harpsichord in July. I only really have subjective
comments to make here but I'm making them anyway. These days I'm thriving on Foccroulle, Walcha II, Rubsam (Naxos), and now also Albrecht, Otto,
Kohler, Piasetzki and Kastner. I've not been, as yet, drawn to the Suzuki, Herrick or Weinberger recordings I own.

I have most of the Berlin recordings; the Piasetzki is my favorite with the most compelling Prelude BWV 569 and Partita BWV 770 I have ever heard.  Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III is one powerful performance.  Herrick and Weinberger also appeal to me greatly, although each has its clunkers here and there.

Whenever I'm feeling down and/or on the weak side, Bach's organ music gives me a jolt of energy like no other music.

[milk]

I have most of the Berlin recordings; the Piasetzki is my favorite with the most compelling Prelude BWV 569 and Partita BWV 770 I have ever heard.  Suzuki's Clavier Ubung III is one powerful performance.  Herrick and Weinberger also appeal to me greatly, although each has its clunkers here and there.

Whenever I'm feeling down and/or on the weak side, Bach's organ music gives me a jolt of energy like no other music.

Well, I'll keep at it with Suzuki. Weinberger's performance of BWV 589 is majestic. I'm also moved by his BWV 531 - I'm dancing on the tops of clouds to the fugue of 531. 

[Marc]

Well, I'll keep at it with Suzuki. Weinberger's performance of BWV 589 is majestic. I'm also moved by his BWV 531 - I'm dancing on the tops of clouds to the fugue of 531.

Review of Suzuki's 'Organ Mass' by a certain Donald Satz :

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Klavier-KlavierUbungIII-Suzuki.htm

Dunno how often I listened to this issue myself, maybe 3 or 4 times, but I found out that I was not able to 'grow' into it. These things are always difficult to explain, but Suzuki did not really touch me in this great work.

Weinberger's complete cycle is certainy an interesting one, also because of the choice of instruments. I experienced some exceptional performances and also a few (slight) disappointments, caused by a certain tightness and stiffness in his playing.

But there are so many great organists who recorded (parts of) this oeuvre .... you're gonna be hooked for a long time.

[Mandryka]

What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

[Sammy]

What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

I'm neutral about their inclusion.

[Marc]

What do you think of the idea of having the chorales in there?

Great.
And even more sung verses are welcome!
Although I think that those chorales should be sung after an organ prelude, like Ton Koopman did in the Leipziger Choräle (Teldec) and Wim van Beek in parts of the Orgel-Büchlein (Helior).

Another option is the recording of the organ chorales, combined with Chorale arrangements for choir, as did Leo van Doeselaar (Channel Classics). He only played the pieces from the 'Große Orgelmesse' though.

[Mandryka]

The one I've really enjoyed (with the chorales) is Claudio Astronio's.

I don't know what to make of having the chorales there: I just can't make up my mind.

What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?

Sometimes when I listen I'm impressed by a feeling of inevitable flow  as the music moves from one piece to the next but I have no idea if I'm fooling myself about this. There's a similar issue w.r.t. Chopin's Op 28 preludes.

(The reason I ask this is that I sometimes feel that the chorales break the flow, and I find myself impatient to move on to the next prelude. Also the chorales seem to make me listen more analytically -- and I don't really think that's a good thing.  You know, I tend to listen to how JSB has used the chorale tune. Same in The Leipzig Chorales  (where I've been listening to Claudio Astronio only a couple of days ago in fact.) Maybe the chorales would work better for me if I could follow the German)

[PaulSC]

Astronio is one of my very favorite recordings of the Leipzig Chorales — I might go so far as to say it's one of my very favorite recordings of any of Bach's organ music. The sung chorales have never bothered me, and I don't mind hearing them ahead of the "preludes". I figure it helps ensure the tune is as familiar to me as it probably was to most of Bach's original listeners.

It's an interesting question whether Bach intended CU III as one integrated work. On the one hand, there is the framing prelude and fugue; but on the other hand, the duetti strike me as a fairly arbitrary inclusion.

[prémont]

The one I've really enjoyed (with the chorales) is Claudio Astronio's.

I thought you would.

I don't know what to make of having the chorales there: I just can't make up my mind.

Like Don I am indifferent as to the inclusion of the chorales. I do not need them because I know the tunes so well, but on the other hand I do not think they do any harm.

What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?

It is a spiritual exercise like f.i. the AoF. Bachs cycles of works were probably not meant to be played as a whole, even if I admit that the AoF and possibly the GV may work well in that way.

[Marc]

Astronio is one of my very favorite recordings of the Leipzig Chorales — I might go so far as to say it's one of my very favorite recordings of any of Bach's organ music. The sung chorales have never bothered me, and I don't mind hearing them ahead of the "preludes". I figure it helps ensure the tune is as familiar to me as it probably was to most of Bach's original listeners.

I just meant to say that, orginally, an organ prelude was meant to 'prelude' the hymn singing by the congregation. Of course, it's difficult to imagine that Bach's extended preludes were also used for that practice .... but who knows ....

[....]
What is the German Organ Mass do you think? I mean, is it an integrated collection of pieces designed to be played as a whole? Or a collection of Chorale preludes in a range of styles?
[....]

As such, a 'German Organ Mass' does not really exist. In this case, it's a collection of organ chorales taken from the Lutheran Mass (Kyrie, Gloria) and Catechism hymns. Some believe that the Duetti represent the four Gospels.

According to Christoph Wolff the collection was meant to present an idealized organ programme, taking as its starting point the organ recitals given by Bach himself in Leipzig; a practical translation of Lutheran doctrine into musical terms for devotional use in the church or the home; a compendium of organ music in all possible styles and idioms, both ancient and modern, and properly internationalised; and as a didactic work presenting examples of all possible forms of contrapuntal composition, going far beyond previous treatises on musical theory..

Another thing is that during the last decades of the baroque era there was a growing tendency to compose more melodic and galant music. Bach was heavily critized by the young Johann Adolf Scheibe (in Der Critische Musicus) for obscuring the beauty of music by an unnatural overabundance of old-fashioned artificial contrapuntal music-writing.
The very influential Johann Mattheson did agree with this and wrote about it, too (although not in the same one-sided negative wording).

Bach never responded to them .... but apparantly decided to let his music speak for itself, by publishing a.o. the Third part of the Clavier-Übung with first class contrapuntal organ music. In this polemical battle the treacherous easy Duetti might have played an important role, too.
Especially the Duetto in F-major BWV 803, written in A-B-A Da Capo form, might have been composed as a real 'tease'. It begins with a very melodic and harmonically beautiful A-section, completely in accordance with the prevailing taste and with the demands of Scheibe and Mattheson, but then Bach is deliberately 'ruining' everything in the B-section with heavy contrapuntal writing and wrenching harmonies.

[prémont]

Dunno how often I listened to this issue myself, maybe 3 or 4 times, but I found out that I was not able to 'grow' into it. These things are always difficult to explain, but Suzuki did not really touch me in this great work.

I share your opinion about Suzuki´s CÜ III. I never warmed to it, finding him cold and aloft, and the organ he uses is nothing to write home about. His Sweelinck organ recording is equally cold, while his Buxtehude organ recording is more interesting. This is like a less "naughty" variety of his teacher Koopman´s Buxtehude.

[Marc]

I share your opinion about Suzuki´s CÜ III. I never warmed to it, finding him cold and aloft, and the organ he uses is nothing to write home about. His Sweelinck organ recording is equally cold, while his Buxtehude organ recording is more interesting. This is like a less "naughty" variety of his teacher Koopman´s Buxtehude.

I'm not sure about the organ, I prefer it f.i. to the Marcussen of Odense (used in Bowyer's integral). But with the Suzuki 2-cd, there's something about the recording which might be related to the acoustics of the Tokyo University Hall, combined with the choices of the production/engineering team (?): it just sounds cold, as if it were recorded in a freezing cold storage cellar.

[prémont]

I'm not sure about the organ, I prefer it f.i. to the Marcussen of Odense (used in Bowyer's integral). But with the Suzuki 2-cd, there's something about the recording which might be related to the acoustics of the Tokyo University Hall, combined with the choices of the production/engineering team (?): it just sounds cold, as if it were recorded in a freezing cold storage cellar.

Oh yes, and I also prefer it to the Beckerath organ Lagacé uses for his Bach integral. But the main problem is Suzuki´s way of playing I think.