J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

How are the recordings of Bach on Italian baroque organs?

Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

Is there any disadvantage?

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs

The way the ranks of the Italian church organ are built up weighs them heavily to the treble. There are no mixtures to balance the bass (although smaller registers break back when their pipes become too small). Large organs even sometimes have additional ranks of principal pipes in the discant. This shows, to my mind, that their main function was the harmonization of choral melodies (falso bordone). Recordings, as well as my own experiences as performer and listener, confirm that lower contrapuntal voices come through poorly. This, however, is a general problem with all big organs, as noted by Arnold Schlick in his Spiegel as early as 1511, which the Germans tried to solve by adding independent pedal divisions.

[milk]

Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs

Thanks for always being on the ball with these kinds of questions. Very interesting. Italian baroque organ music doesn't have much in the way of bass counterpoint - as far as I'm familiar with it. Makes sense. On the other hand, there must be a program out there that fits an Italian instrument. But not Bach's "big" music.

[bioluminescentsquid]

Nothing is coming to mind. Astronio used modern organs, Leoonhardt didn't record any Bach in Italy as far as I know, Kimberly Marshall used an American organ for her Italian Bach cd, Alessio Corti used modern organs. I give up.

This is what Glen Wilson says about Italian organs

The main problem with Italian Baroque organs is that they often do not have pedals, or when they do, they are unwieldy pedals coupled to the manuals just for holding down pedal points.

Here's a picture of the 16th century Malamini organ in St. Petronio, Bologna - a large organ by Italian standards. Notice how it has only one manual and a pitifully small 1.5-octave pedal board? Italian organs more or less remained like this up to Bach's time, Mattheson even made fun of the organs in St. Mark's Venice for being so small and primitive compared to German organs.



Temperament-wise, Italian organs were often tuned in meantone all the way up to the late 19th century! So not good for Bach either.
Try playing the "Wedge" prelude and fugue on this!

Compared to the much better endowed Trost organ at Waltershausen, which Bach may or may not have played on (itself a rather unwieldy beast because of its heavy action and very wide pedalboard)



I think there are Italians organs later in the 18th century or in the 19th century that had multiple manuals and more advanced pedalboards, I think there's even a good recording of BWV 552 on one of them. But I'll have to dig it out.

For now, we will have to settle for Balint Karosi playing Bach on a recent Italian-inspired organ by Fisk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYaYep6GvMo&t=718s

There's also Bach in Montecassino by Luca Guglielmi, but I think it's not so interesting of a performance.


Edit: the recording I was referring to is this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VPSajsi18

Edit: Lots of Bach played on mostly 19th century Italian organs on this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfVRxMQU6bjG7f2RFVk2ddA/videos

[Marc]

Maybe some of the (restored) organs of Johann Konrad Wörle (or Werle) AKA Giovanni Conrado Verlé (1701-1777) are more or less suitable for Bach. He came from Tirol and perhaps brought some Southern German influences into Italy. He eventually ended up in Rome and was quite famous as an organ builder.

But this is just a wild guess.

If there is any label who might have some 'Italian' Bach discs in the catalogue, I'd say it would be Tactus.

[Mandryka]

I am looking forward to reading senior members' review on his new recordings.

It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

[JBS]

Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?

[prémont]

Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?

Yes, but I do not find him that convincing in Bach. Can't speak for others. Presto has clips to listen to.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8046434--js-bach-toccata-and-fugue-other-works

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8174105--j-s-bach-organ-works

[prémont]

It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?

[Mandryka]

I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?

I made a transfer using transfergo.com.  I sent them an email, they replied with their bank details.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

Wow!

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Go to Topics: Simone Stella on YT, and you will find a lot of Bach works by Stella.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mzWdA2jQxcxaKPO2Z6OwDAyVIZrrAFx74

Has Simone Stella recorded any Bach?

[JBS]

Thank you, gentlemen. My question was motivated by the fact that I am listening to his Walther set this week.

[Mandryka]

I suppose you ordered their CDs by writing to their website. But how did you pay them?

Worth the effort for the BWV 653 alone!

[prémont]

Go to Topics: Simone Stella on YT, and you will find a lot of Bach works by Stella.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mzWdA2jQxcxaKPO2Z6OwDAyVIZrrAFx74

Similar content as one of  the CDs I posted links to above.

[bioluminescentsquid]

Well, I've listened to the whole thing and spoiler: It's very good - at least for me.

CU III is really a paradox to me, Bach's intense confession of faith that requires both intimacy and bravura, the ability to depict both joy (BWV 679) and deep despair (BWV 686). Few organists can do that - it's devilishly music to play anyways.

Sometimes I think the Dutch organists I like (Beekman, Wiersma etc.) can be a little too reserved in the music - thankfully Fischer combines this Dutch reticence with a bit of extraversion, to good effect.

He's certainly not shy about his organ; we hear the full organo pleno - everything from 16' up with manuals coupled and the 32's in the pedal - at least four times in the recording. It's orgasmic, his BWV 552 or 686. I think it's also worth noting his mesmerizing BWV 689 played on a single flute, his utterly reed-saturated BWV 682, or cheeky and very much galant BWV 667 (maybe a bit of comic relief from the otherwise sober Lutheran fare?).

Tempi are generally on the slow side - in a good way. There's that sense of spiritual patience that Wiersma has in most of his recordings, but oddly not so much in his own CU III. The slow tempi allow for so much more tension and ecstasy in the music.

Maybe my one only complaint is a sense that compared to a lot of other CU IIIs, some smaller chorales can lack a bit of intimacy. Fischer's God is very much almighty, distant, forbidding, and unknowable. I think I would compare it to Wolfram Syre's Tunder recording.

Instead of listing stops used in the different tracks, the booklet has a chart that graphically depicts the registrations used. Pretty cool, he also manages to use every single stop in the organ in the recording. Even old-fashioned stops in Bach's time like Zinckes and pedal cimbels have a place!
(Although as another complaint, a certain note on the pedal cimbel - I think it's the one for the high D - seems to be voiced differently and screechily sticks out like a sore thumb in BWV 686. It doesn't bother me, but I do wonder if that is caused by organistic malfunction on the day of the recording - a company like Flentrop could not have not caught that sort of mistake while voicing!)

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Kei Koito talks about her album and her choice of organ. It is very brief though.
The video is blocked in the U.S.A., so I watched it via browser with VNP.

https://youtu.be/AhuHRr4mfRs

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.

+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."

I forgot about Kei Koito. It seems that a majority of members here praise her selection of organs, if not her performance.

[milk]

It's a first class performance of the Leipzig Chorales on a first class organ, with first class sound. First class. Top tier. Top organ totty, hotty pototty.

wait, which one is this?

[Mandryka]

wait, which one is this?

Pieter van Dijk at Alkmaar.

[Mandryka]

Tremendous mystical performance of BWV 528 here I'm going to have to check out what he does with the other sonatas  now!