J.S. Bach on the Organ

[bioluminescentsquid]

I meant Kooiman indeed.

I understand your point about Wiersma, but then, when I listen to f.i. BWV 682... well...
Summarized: it's just not easy to name favourites in a field where so many good musicians have excelled. Sometimes I forget to mention one, and sometimes good/bad listening memories can blur things, too.

I.c. Philips: I have 2 volumes of her (should check it out though, not 100% sure), mainly chorale-related works, and I would say: she's solid, with mostly swift tempi, without adding the 'bonuses' that can make interpretations special. Her choice of instruments is solid, too. Quite logical choices, but indeed no unknown gems.

I think I have been spoiled by Fischer's playing of BWV 682, can't imagine it now without sesquialteras, fiery little North German reeds, plus the 16' dulcian growling away in the pedal. Not very "Authentic" though
... but I take back what I said about Wiersma. Undoubtedly more conventional and a little timid, but still very beautiful and sincere. With Wiersma, I always can tell that he gave everything to his playing, as rough or flawed as it can sometimes be.

Thanks for the Phillips opinion, I guess I won't really like the set then. A lot of fast Bach played on great organs out there already.

... but speaking of "fast Bach played on great organs" I forgot to mention Ton Koopman for Leipzig Chorales. What a great ride!

[Marc]

I think I have been spoiled by Fischer's playing of BWV 682, can't imagine it now without sesquialteras, fiery little North German reeds, plus the 16' dulcian growling away in the pedal. Not very "Authentic" though
... but I take back what I said about Wiersma. Undoubtedly more conventional and a little timid, but still very beautiful and sincere. With Wiersma, I always can tell that he gave everything to his playing, as rough or flawed as it can sometimes be.

Thanks for the Phillips opinion, I guess I won't really like the set then. A lot of fast Bach played on great organs out there already.

... but speaking of "fast Bach played on great organs" I forgot to mention Ton Koopman for Leipzig Chorales. What a great ride!

I.c. registration: I'm not informed enough about that chapter... I'm already happy when I can more or less hear whether it's a principal, flute or reed stop. And about 'authentic' registration or not: is Ewald Kooiman's BWV 682 in Weingarten 'authentic'? I just could not tell. I do know that I really LOVE Bram Beekman's registration... in general, and in BWV 682 in particular.
Schnitger-like organs have different stops to offer than Silbermanns, for instance. So I guess that Bach had to find different ways to registrate too, when playing somewhere in Thüringen or in Hamburg, where, as the story goes, he played around half an hour variations on "An Wasserflüßen Babylon". Too bad that Reincken did not ask the local HiFi specialist to make a recording of that!

I.c. Koopman: in most cases, I find his tempo choices in the chorales more convincing than in the free works. Less rushed.

[Marc]

Talking about rushing: rushing through Margaret Phillips' integral for Regent Records. To get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcGNDnw6nM4

https://www.youtube.com/v/AcGNDnw6nM4

[Marc]

And, for some more fun: Domitila Ballesteros playing BWV 543 on my personal favourite instrument (well, one of my favourites): the Schnitger et al of Noordbroek, NL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRD-EwTULY

https://www.youtube.com/v/WRRD-EwTULY

[bioluminescentsquid]

And, for some more fun: Domitila Ballesteros playing BWV 543 on my personal favourite instrument (well, one of my favourites): the Schnitger et al of Noordbroek, NL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRD-EwTULY

https://www.youtube.com/v/WRRD-EwTULY

Since you're from that area, how do you think the Uithuizen Schnitger compares to the one in Noordbroek - and which one do you like more?

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen). I would guess the registration Fischer used would be considered quite old-fashioned (belonging to the generation of late Weckmann or Buxtehude) by 1739, when reeds and sesquialteras became less popular than milder and more colorful stops like violon-bass, cornets and Flöte-travers, and pulling lots of stops of the same pitch became ok. Basically, going from a late renaissance broken consort to a high baroque court ensemble.

Kooiman's CU III in Weingarten I have to dig out - heard it a long time ago and I remember liking it. It's one of the few Coronata Kooiman recordings I have. Are you familiar with his even earlier integrale, the one that probably never made it off LP?

[Marc]

Since you're from that area, how do you think the Uithuizen Schnitger compares to the one in Noordbroek - and which one do you like more?

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen). I would guess the registration Fischer used would be considered quite old-fashioned (belonging to the generation of late Weckmann or Buxtehude) by 1739, when reeds and sesquialteras became less popular than milder and more colorful stops like violon-bass, cornets and Flöte-travers, and pulling lots of stops of the same pitch became ok. Basically, going from a late renaissance broken consort to a high baroque court ensemble.

Kooiman's CU III in Weingarten I have to dig out - heard it a long time ago and I remember liking it. It's one of the few Coronata Kooiman recordings I have. Are you familiar with his even earlier integrale, the one that probably never made it off LP?

In short: I prefer Noordbroek, it just has got a more 'royal' sound (dunno how else to describe it). But when I went to Uithuizen last summer, it struck me as sounding more beautiful than I remembered. Problem is though, that Noordbroek 'delivers' at least 5 concerts each summer, and Uithuizen is not used very often for either concerts or recordings. Alongside Noordbroek, another 'medium' Schnitger organ that I dearly love is the one in Norden, even though I only heard it on record.

Kooiman's CU 3 is very much to my likings, but I'm not entirely pleased with the recording/sound quality. The Gabler instrument sounds much more harsh compared to other recordings that I have. I.c. the younger Kooiman: I don't have the vinyl recordings, but I do have (copy from library) one disc from the early 1980s, where he also plays Bach. I would say that his playing style is much more stiff then. So, IMHO, he's improving through the years. Maybe Premont knows more about Kooiman's vinyl integral... he already visited concerts of Bruckner in the Linzer Dom, so he's been around for quite a long time already.

[Que]

"Authentic" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, Bach hadn't been in North Germany for quite a while when he wrote CU III, so it was probably conceived for Trost/Hildebrandt/Silbermann/Scheibe type organs rather than a 17th century city organ in Hamburg (or Groningen).

This reminded me of my own favourite CÜ-III:

[asin]B000028BTI[/asin]

I have the whole set and it is one if my best Bach recordings, recommended by premont.
I like the organ, which is indeed different from the usual high powered ones. An acquired taste, but I love the subtle colours and strong character.
No lack of any musical qualities of the instrument in my book, and the performances by Felix Friedrich are superbly suited to it: subtle, airy, articulate, technically highly accomplished. The way I like to imagine Bach would have played the instrument, which he knew very well.

Q

[SurprisedByBeauty]

This reminded me of my own favourite CÜ-III:


J.S.Bach-Dritter Theil der Clavier-Uebung

A gorgeous, stunning organ. I hit it on my #BachByBike trip last summer. In fact, it might have been the most beautiful instrument to look at, at least!
(And still has the organ bench on which Bach himself sat. Very popular with organists, despite a certain lack of modern comfort.)


#Bach-the-Organ-Tester: JSB visits the #AltenburgCastle's church where he played & treated the gorgeous #TrostOrgel.

On the trail of
@BACH_JohannSeb
through #Thuringia & beyond on bicycle.

#BachByBike #Altenburg #Thüringen #TrostOrgel #johannsebastianb... https://ift.tt/2MYjjd9
(The second picture on Instagram shows the picture with inverse sharp/out-of-focus relation.)

[bioluminescentsquid]

A gorgeous, stunning organ. I hit it on my #BachByBike trip last summer. In fact, it might have been the most beautiful instrument to look at, at least!
(And still has the organ bench on which Bach himself sat. Very popular with organists, despite a certain lack of modern comfort.)


#Bach-the-Organ-Tester: JSB visits the #AltenburgCastle's church where he played & treated the gorgeous #TrostOrgel.

On the trail of
@BACH_JohannSeb
through #Thuringia & beyond on bicycle.

#BachByBike #Altenburg #Thüringen #TrostOrgel #johannsebastianb... https://ift.tt/2MYjjd9
(The second picture on Instagram shows the picture with inverse sharp/out-of-focus relation.)

I've been fortunate to have played that organ a few years ago, and was just looking at videos taken from that trip. Wonderful organ in an intimate church crammed to the brim with Baroque furniture, with a very chamber-music feel to it. I remember playing Frescobaldi's elevation toccata on the famous registration recorded by Agricola, of four 8' flutes in the Oberwerk coupled together. Scrumptious!
About organ benches, I remember this one being relatively comfortable, although on the narrow side. However, the one in Arnstadt (a copy of the original now in the museum) was oddly narrow and would leave half of your butt hanging off the back!

We need more good Bach recordings on Central German organs, and not just the large ones/Silbermanns! Something like Weinberger's Bach integrals, but with a more engaging performer.

I'll check out the CUIII of Friedrich.

[Mandryka]

We need more good Bach recordings on Central German organs, and not just the large ones/Silbermanns! Something like Weinberger's Bach integrals, but with a more engaging performer.

Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arnstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.

[Harry]

Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.

I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.

[Marc]

I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.

I understand your POV entirely, Harry.
On the other hand: to me, (beautiful) choices of registration can certainly have a huge influence on the emotional listening experience. For me personally, it's actually what makes the organ so special as instrument, even though, as I said earlier, I can't name all those stops.
I do recall that 'once upon a long ago', after a concert in the Martinikerk, I walked to organist Peter Westerbrink (from the Der Aa Kerk and Noordbroek), who also was in the audience, and we both agreed that a certain piece was registrated and played beautifully. I asked him, because I was curious to know: "What stop did he use for the cantus firmus?" He answered: "I haven't got the slightest idea."
Well, maybe he was fooling around, but at least it made me feel a bit less clumsy...

[bioluminescentsquid]

Have you heard David Fanke and Robert Clark's CDs of Bach at Naumburg? And Helga Schauerte at Arnstadt? I think you're being unfair to Weinberger.

I am definitely am being unfair to Weinberger - there is a lot of exciting stuff in the integral. But my general impression is that he's better with bigger organs and bigger works than with more intimate ones. Sort of the polar opposite of Piet Wiersma.

Schauerte I've listened to - I think she can be very uneven, sometimes very engaging but a lot of times a bit rushed and dry. I like her Buxtehude and other pre-Bach recordings more than her Bach. Her Orgelbüchlein is probably my favorite of the set, especially in the more contemplative chorales.

.... that being said, I always say I don't like a recording, and then fall in love after a few more listens. I have to give both another shot - especially Weinberger.

David Fanke and Robert Clark, I've heard Robert Clark on radio somewhere but I don't remember if I liked it. I see that it's one of Premont's recommendations! Is it still available anywhere?
Now that I think of it, I really am not familiar with recordings at Naumburg at all. The only one I've listened much to is Elisabeth Ullmann, and Balint Karosi's Weckmann. Also, it's featured on a radio program here, with great playing and narration by Nathan Laube. https://beta.prx.org/stories/276804

I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?

As for being too technical about organ stuff, I must be one of the worst repeat offenders here! That is indeed how I think about and appreciate organs, as an organist myself, but I will definitely tone the paragraphs of jargon down.

Edit: I forgot that part of Weinberger was recorded at Naumburg. Shame on me!

[prémont]

David Franke's CÜ III was recorded at Naumburg. I do not recall others.

It may be true, that we often stress technical details about organ recordings, but to me at least some technical details are an integrated part of the expressivity of the interpretation (which organ? which tuning? which stops?).

[Harry]

I understand your POV entirely, Harry.
On the other hand: to me, (beautiful) choices of registration can certainly have a huge influence on the emotional listening experience. For me personally, it's actually what makes the organ so special as instrument, even though, as I said earlier, I can't name all those stops.
I do recall that 'once upon a long ago', after a concert in the Martinikerk, I walked to organist Peter Westerbrink (from the Der Aa Kerk and Noordbroek), who also was in the audience, and we both agreed that a certain piece was registrated and played beautifully. I asked him, because I was curious to know: "What stop did he use for the cantus firmus?" He answered: "I haven't got the slightest idea."
Well, maybe he was fooling around, but at least it made me feel a bit less clumsy...

Thats a nice anecdote, Marc

[Harry]

David Franke's CÜ III was recorded at Naumburg. I do not recall others.

It may be true, that we often stress technical details about organ recordings, but to me at least some technical details are an integrated part of the expressivity of the interpretation (which organ? which tuning? which stops?).

For me too, but it quickly gets to a level that readers have big question marks before them.
When I started to learn to play the Organ, Jan Jongepier gave me a book that he had written to start with, the title of which is "Toegang tot het Orgel"
Introduction to the Organ. When I opened the first page I thought I would never comprehend all the in and outs of this instrument, and it took me years of reading, looking at the workings of het binnenwerk, distinguishing all the different stops, recognizing which is which  in many an organ, not easy at all, to finally getting a grip of all that is involved. So I keep it all as simply as I can, when I explain what I think of an organ recording.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I like reading the technical issues posted by you and other members. They are very informative since there is no publication on these matters.

I am definitely am being unfair to Weinberger - there is a lot of exciting stuff in the integral. But my general impression is that he's better with bigger organs and bigger works than with more intimate ones. Sort of the polar opposite of Piet Wiersma.

Schauerte I've listened to - I think she can be very uneven, sometimes very engaging but a lot of times a bit rushed and dry. I like her Buxtehude and other pre-Bach recordings more than her Bach. Her Orgelbüchlein is probably my favorite of the set, especially in the more contemplative chorales.

.... that being said, I always say I don't like a recording, and then fall in love after a few more listens. I have to give both another shot - especially Weinberger.

David Fanke and Robert Clark, I've heard Robert Clark on radio somewhere but I don't remember if I liked it. I see that it's one of Premont's recommendations! Is it still available anywhere?
Now that I think of it, I really am not familiar with recordings at Naumburg at all. The only one I've listened much to is Elisabeth Ullmann, and Balint Karosi's Weckmann. Also, it's featured on a radio program here, with great playing and narration by Nathan Laube. https://beta.prx.org/stories/276804

I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?

As for being too technical about organ stuff, I must be one of the worst repeat offenders here! That is indeed how I think about and appreciate organs, as an organist myself, but I will definitely tone the paragraphs of jargon down.

Edit: I forgot that part of Weinberger was recorded at Naumburg. Shame on me!

[Mandryka]

I think there's a wonderful CU III recorded at Naumburg - does anyone know which recording is this? Or am I misremembering?

That's David Frank. The Clark at Naumburg I have, I can let you have it, but in truth I've never got on with it, and I can't explain why, just me.

Re technical stuff, you taught me about chiff chaff chuff  choff, and that's wonderful!

[prémont]

For me too, but it quickly gets to a level that readers have big question marks before them.

Yes, but most of the readers here are people who are familiar with rather much of organ technique like yourself and me.

[Marc]

Yes, but most of the readers here are people who are familiar with rather much of organ technique like yourself and me.

I think this can be seen in most music boards.
Messages, ranging from "i like this performance, cause it sounds good" to "in this recording of Bruckner X, in the first movement, bar Y, the conductor chooses to have it played 'poco mosso' whilst I would prefer it 'poco meno mosso', but for the rest, it's a good performance, because it emphasizes the mood of this work so well, the balance between the instrumental sections are very well released and all modulations in the Finale have been given extra weight."