J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Mandryka

#3220
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Spotted Horses

I listened to three recordings of Bach's Prelude and Fugue BWV248, "The Wedge."

The Alain digital set


The Weinberg set


The Andra Isoir set


For many years the Alain set has been my reference, but I must admit I enjoyed the Isoir set most of all. Wonderful clarity of line, whereas Alain tended towards the clamorous. I don't know whether to attribute that to registration, the instrument, or the recording technique. I think Isoir may become my new reference.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mandryka

#3222
I haven't heard Isoir, Weinberger is too rushed, Alain III is rather spoilt by the memory of the glorious Alain II wedge. Leonhardt set the standard for me though, and I would hate to be without Werner Jacob.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 01:29:40 AM
I haven't heard Isoir, Weinberger is too rushed, Alain III is rather spoilt by the memory of the glorious Alain II wedge. Leonhardt set the standard for me though, and I would hate to be without Werner Jacob.

After posting this I also listened to Alain II, and it is indeed splendid and perhaps the best of the lot.

At one point I had the Werner Jacob EMI set but sold it, for some reason, probably to buy Alain III.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Mandryka

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2021, 02:20:55 AM
After posting this I also listened to Alain II, and it is indeed splendid and perhaps the best of the lot.

At one point I had the Werner Jacob EMI set but sold it, for some reason, probably to buy Alain III.

Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better. 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 04:18:49 AM
Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better.

My recollection is that it was an early CD release and I found the high end slightly harsh, as was not uncommon in those days. If I could wish it back I would.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Papy Oli

If one is new to organ music in general and wants to dip a toe or two in Bach's organ music, which few BWV numbers are worth selecting in the various works (Toccatas, Fugues, Chorales, etc) for some comparative sampling please ?

I have for instance enjoyed a first foray into the random pick of Trio Sonata No.1 earlier today (Koopman, Alain II, Hurford, Richter).

Where next please ? In any style.


Olivier

premont

Quote from: Papy Oli on July 01, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
If one is new to organ music in general and wants to dip a toe or two in Bach's organ music, which few BWV numbers are worth selecting in the various works (Toccatas, Fugues, Chorales, etc) for some comparative sampling please ?

I have for instance enjoyed a first foray into the random pick of Trio Sonata No.1 earlier today (Koopman, Alain II, Hurford, Richter).

Where next please ? In any style.

Difficult question because most of his organ music is top notch. If you liked the first trio sonata, the five others are a logical way to continue. Other than these I would recommend the passacaglia, all the toccatas (the Dorian the most) the Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III. Alain II is a good guide as to these works. I suppose you are not that HIP orientated talking about Hurford and Richter, and IMO some of the most impressive Bach organ recordings are not strictly HIP (Walcha, Stockmeier, Kraft and to some degree Isoir). So even if I theoretically prefer HIP; I'm not a fanatic.
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premont

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2021, 04:18:49 AM
Jacob just does something a bit magical, he gives the prelude a sort of relief, a 3D texture. I can't explain it any better.

If IIRC he recorded it on the Hildebrandt organ in the church of St. Wenzel in Naumburg. I am impressed by how he makes this monstrous organ sound as if it was built for this work.
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Mandryka

Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 10, 2021, 08:55:16 PM
I listened to three recordings of Bach's Prelude and Fugue BWV248, "The Wedge."


548 not 248!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Papy Oli

Quote from: (: premont :) on July 01, 2021, 04:07:16 PM
Difficult question because most of his organ music is top notch. If you liked the first trio sonata, the five others are a logical way to continue. Other than these I would recommend the passacaglia, all the toccatas (the Dorian the most) the Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III. Alain II is a good guide as to these works. I suppose you are not that HIP orientated talking about Hurford and Richter, and IMO some of the most impressive Bach organ recordings are not strictly HIP (Walcha, Stockmeier, Kraft and to some degree Isoir). So even if I theoretically prefer HIP; I'm not a fanatic.

Thank you for the pointers, Peter, duly noted. I have started on the Passacaglia this morning.

The organ world is completely new to me so I have no a priori or presumptions on the organs, organists, HIP or otherwise, etc.

I have picked a dozen main names or so from the early pages of this thread and selected them in Idagio. That should give me a good varied starting base (the ones I have picked are : Alain, Walcha, Weinberger, Koopman, Biggs, Fagius, Rubsam, Weir, Rogg, Fouccroulle, Richter, Suzuki, Hurford, etc)
Olivier

premont

Quote from: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 02:38:07 AM
Thank you for the pointers, Peter, duly noted. I have started on the Passacaglia this morning.

Sorry Oliver, my name is Poul,  not Peter.  :)

Quote from: Papy Oli

I have picked a dozen main names or so from the early pages of this thread and selected them in Idagio. That should give me a good varied starting base (the ones I have picked are : Alain, Walcha, Weinberger, Koopman, Biggs, Fagius, Rubsam, Weir, Rogg, Fouccroulle, Richter, Suzuki, Hurford, etc)

These are excellent choices that will definitely keep you busy for some time. Not only to get to know the music, but also to gain experience with different styles of interpretation - a wide selection being represented here.
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Papy Oli

Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 03:33:54 AM
Sorry Oliver, my name is Poul,  not Peter.  :)

Oops, my apologies, Poul  :-[

Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 03:33:54 AM
These are excellent choices that will definitely keep you busy for some time. Not only to get to know the music, but also to gain experience with different styles of interpretation - a wide selection being represented here.

Good to know, that's what I was hoping for :)
Olivier

premont

Quote from: Papy Oli on July 02, 2021, 03:54:35 AM
Oops, my apologies, Poul  :-[

No offence taken. And you are not the first here to call me Peter.  :)
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Mandryka

Quote from: (: premont :) on July 02, 2021, 04:47:52 AM
No offence taken. And you are not the first here to call me Peter.  :)

In English there's a saying "Don't rob Peter to pay Paul."
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme



A recent find at the local record store. Sounds excellent! Love the crystal clear sound of the instrument, apparently a Müller organ in Haarlem. Disclaimer: I know nothing about organs. But it's a beautiful instrument, physically and sonically. Good '80s Chandos sound. Any fans of Piet Kee's Bach? As I say, this was a random find.

Elk

#3236
I spoiled myself. While I can stream the Kooiman on Aeolus on Spotify in stereo, I like the performances and recordings so much I wanted them in multichannel. The purchase has been worth it. Having 5 channels operating really gives the illusion of being in the church(es). The speakers cannot be located.

Mandryka

Quote from: Elk on July 08, 2021, 04:29:43 AM
I spoiled myself. While I can stream the Kooiman on Aeolus on Spotify in stereo, I like the performances and recordings so much I wanted them in multichannel. The purchase has been worth it. Having 5 channels operating really gives the illusion of being in the church(es). The speakers cannot be located.

Yes, that's a big part of the organ experience so I am kind of jealous.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Papy Oli

Following my enquiry above, I have made a few beginner's explorations in the last few days :

* Tried about half of the Art of Fugue by Walcha (Archiv). That takes some getting used to, I prefer the AoF on harpsichord or piano.

* A first listen to about half of Clavier-Übung III by Foccroule. Enjoyed those works. This Foccroulle set so far has quite an appealing sound and pace too and, I found, a clear playing.

* For my simple education, I did the small exercise of listening to the first 20-30 seconds of the famous Toccata BWV 565 on most versions available on Idagio. Now that was "ear-opening" to hear different organ sonorities and how differently it can be played by an organist. It suddenly also made sense why, in this thread, I kept reading Koopman was being fast and adding a lot of embellishments. I still liked his approach enough to listen to his in full. I also ended up listening to the full version by Alain (II). I was impressed by its weightier feel.

* Being intrigued by Koopman's BWV 565, I then listened to more of his toccatas and fugues (on the Archiv set). It is entertaining (for a bit) but I probably listened to too many. His fast pace worn me out eventually :laugh:

* The bulk of my listening, beyond the above, has been to dabble into the various Trio Sonatas. Again, Alain II, Foccroulle and Koopman emerged as my favourites for those. Rubsam (Philips) caught my ear too. I also tried the other Rubsam (Naxos), Walcha, Richter and Weinberger but their sound did not work for me as yet. (note: I am completely absorbed by Alain II in the 4th/5th/6th right now).

Quick question: I have read a few positive comments about the Koopman Novalis 6-CD set in the thread. Is Koopman already that fast in that particular set too please (I can't find samples) ? There are a few cheap sets on Ebay and I just wondered about it. Not sure I would want his full Teldec set if is all that fast either ?

There's obviously more exploration yet to be done on all of them anyway, but it is very satisfying so far.
Olivier

Mandryka

Quote from: Papy Oli on July 08, 2021, 08:17:08 AM
Following my enquiry above, I have made a few beginner's explorations in the last few days :

* Tried about half of the Art of Fugue by Walcha (Archiv). That takes some getting used to, I prefer the AoF on harpsichord or piano.

* A first listen to about half of Clavier-Übung III by Foccroule. Enjoyed those works. This Foccroulle set so far has quite an appealing sound and pace too and, I found, a clear playing.

* For my simple education, I did the small exercise of listening to the first 20-30 seconds of the famous Toccata BWV 565 on most versions available on Idagio. Now that was "ear-opening" to hear different organ sonorities and how differently it can be played by an organist. It suddenly also made sense why, in this thread, I kept reading Koopman was being fast and adding a lot of embellishments. I still liked his approach enough to listen to his in full. I also ended up listening to the full version by Alain (II). I was impressed by its weightier feel.

* Being intrigued by Koopman's BWV 565, I then listened to more of his toccatas and fugues (on the Archiv set). It is entertaining (for a bit) but I probably listened to too many. His fast pace worn me out eventually :laugh:

* The bulk of my listening, beyond the above, has been to dabble into the various Trio Sonatas. Again, Alain II, Foccroulle and Koopman emerged as my favourites for those. Rubsam (Philips) caught my ear too. I also tried the other Rubsam (Naxos), Walcha, Richter and Weinberger but their sound did not work for me as yet. (note: I am completely absorbed by Alain II in the 4th/5th/6th right now).

Quick question: I have read a few positive comments about the Koopman Novalis 6-CD set in the thread. Is Koopman already that fast in that particular set too please (I can't find samples) ? There are a few cheap sets on Ebay and I just wondered about it. Not sure I would want his full Teldec set if is all that fast either ?

There's obviously more exploration yet to be done on all of them anyway, but it is very satisfying so far.

Koopman on Novalis has what is, IMO, one the very greatest of organ performances on record, BWV 656 at Ottobeuren, it's vol. 4 of the set. It is particularly slow.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen